On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Freemasonry Works Best When We Listen First: An Interview With M∴W∴ Haskell R. Vest, Jr.
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This is a first for us, and a first for the State of Florida!
A sitting Grand Master rarely speaks this directly and that’s exactly why this conversation matters. We’re joined by Most Worshipful Haskell R. Vest, Grand Master of Masons in Florida, for an honest talk about what leadership looks like when the Craft is strained, brothers are tired, and trust needs rebuilding.
We start with the human side of Masonry: why modern communication like podcasts and town halls isn’t a threat, how levity and fellowship can coexist with serious ritual and lodge business, and why “making mistakes with confidence” beats freezing in fear. From his Air Force career and decades of management, MW Vest breaks down team standards, mentoring the weak link, and the leadership move that solves more lodge conflict than any argument: take the brother to lunch and find out what’s really going on.
Then we go where many conversations won’t: Masonic justice, due process, and the difference between a directive and a ruling and decision. We discuss ex post facto punishment, facing your accuser, free speech and consequences inside a fraternity, and why MW Vest chose to expunge records and set a stronger precedent for fairness. We also talk legislation, voting, and what it takes to prevent the next “perfect storm.”
If you care about Freemasonry in Florida, lodge governance, officer training, Masonic education, or the future of brotherhood, this one is for you. Subscribe, share this with a brother who needs it, and leave us a review. What part of the Craft needs the most rebuilding where you live?
#Freemasonry #Brotherhood #Fraternity
Welcome And Why He’s Here
SPEAKER_01Join on the level podcast as we plumb the depths of our ancient friends to try to unlock the mysteries, dispel the fallacies, and utilize the teachings of Freemasonry to unlock the greatest within each of us. Let's go.
SPEAKER_00What is going on? Ladies, gentlemen, boys, girls, children of all ages, welcome back to On the Level Podcast. My name is Matt Stone. I am joined today by worshipful Chris Burns, the author, the originator, the OG of On the Level Podcast. And today we have an amazing guest. I'm excited for you guys to be able to sit down and talk with us for a little while. Most worshipful Haskell Vest, welcome to the show, sir. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02I'm doing great. Thank you for having me on. I've been anticipating this for you know a few weeks, ever since we started talking about it. And um so I'm ready to go. We'll see. Anticipating. You're excited.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for coming. And in memory of good old Tim Curry, it's the Antissa Patient.
SPEAKER_01So what's sad is I had to explain to my whole staff who Tim Curry is. Like all my team are young people. That's what you get for employing all Gen Z or Sorry. I know. I know that's true. How do you not know who Tim Curry is? I mean, that's like saying you don't know who Clark Gable is.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, let's just come right out of the gate. I mean, you know, we're here to talk, we're here to talk to the man of the hour, the man of the state. This is amazing. This is great. So most worshipful Haskell vests, I mean, just right out the gate. Floor is yours. Do you have anything you would like to say to the brothers? And then we'll jump into some questions and get to know who the man is behind the gold collar.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate it. Like I said, guys, I was very excited. Uh some of the new incentives coming out are basically communication with the brothers in the craft. That's and I feel like they I cannot make a personal handshake and visit to every single brother that we have in the state. There's, you know, almost uh 28,000, 29,000 brothers. And uh this is a way to reach out to a majority or a a great majority of brothers and uh uh being able to let them know my mind, kind of where we're going, who I am. And uh in the future, I know this is gonna happen more and more, at least I hope it is. Um the the communication and podcasting are a lot of people don't like it. I love them. I I absolutely get a lot of information from them.
SPEAKER_01We are very well aware some people in Masonry don't like it. And uh we've go to great lengths to try to reassure people like we're never gonna say something that shouldn't be said to the general public on the podcast. And I think that's the biggest issue people have is that we are saying things that shouldn't be said to the public. Um that at least that's the biggest thing I hear of like why we shouldn't
Podcasting As Modern Masonic Outreach
SPEAKER_01be talking about these the fraternity on a podcast. But uh, you know, I mean if we don't talk about it, how isn't anyone gonna know we exist anymore? This is just how people consume. Like people, there's no you know, when we were growing up, there were four channels on television and everyone watched them. And so if you wanted to reach an audience, you had to do a commercial on one of those four channels, but now there's eight million dollars. You were too young for that. You were too young for four channels on the TV. I actually am not, sadly. Okay. I grew up in my TV was a furniture piece in the living room.
SPEAKER_02Um our remote was our youngest son. That was the remote that turned the TV.
SPEAKER_01So I was the the youngest one.
SPEAKER_00So I was the one You know, the sad thing is is I was born in 86 and I still live through that time frame just because my family was really poor at the beginning. So we had like the what, like 12 or 18-inch TV that was sat up in the living room and had two dials. It had but you had more channels. You had like probably 13 or something. So you would switch the lower dial to whatever like main station, and then you dial it into whatever was on the top of it. Crazy how far we've come in our lifetimes with technology.
SPEAKER_02That's mind-blowing. So the modern, you know, moving into the modern age is very, very important. I believe that masonry uh, you know, we don't talk about esoteric things on an open podcast, uh secrets and things like that. Um, but we want brothers to know, I want brothers to know that we all are servants of the craft. And moving forward, a lot of people kind of don't understand that. I'm very approachable. I always tell people if I call you up and I'm gonna take you to lunch or dinner, you're probably gonna get your tail chewed, but you're gonna get a free lunch or dinner. Okay. Um the thing about it is so you're happy when we leave, you know, we've talked about it. And then if I get a phone call, I'm expecting you to pay for my dinner if we're gonna get it chewing, you know. Uh but that's the way I've always been.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Yeah, I've noticed that things have gotten to um there was a time when the Grand Line would come to our district um and you could tell the joy they were having. They were having a great time just with each other, and you could see that and feel it. Right. That was such a great example for us in our lodges to say we we should have that relationship where we're kind of jokey and fun. Sure. Even though it's business. Um, and so it's good because I think we're coming back to a time when you we can see you guys are having fun and enjoying your time together, and it's so beneficial to the rest of the craft to see that uh as a well, for two reasons. I think one that it's okay to have fun and still do business, sure. And two, that this is the way in Masonry. We should have joy uh with each other and when we spend time together.
SPEAKER_02Well, fellowship and brotherly love are are very, very important in our fraternity. We talk about it, we give it words, we say we're brothers, but are we really? And uh I'm not talking about you know, um degrading somebody or joking with somebody and at their expense. I'm talking about we should be able to to laugh and and and then when we get serious, when we do our ritual work or when we're doing budgets or we're doing lodge work, you know, we're serious. And um I I love to go into a situation um and everybody to be calm and comfortable. And you know it never happens whenever uh you know, if the grandmaster is gonna visit the lodge, it's like, oh my god, oh my god, I'm gonna make a mistake and he's gonna see it. Oh yeah. And to me, it's like uh I tell everybody I'm a 95% person, okay? I make mistakes, okay? And I understand that everybody makes mistakes and nobody died. Nobody fell over and died from the mistake you made or whatever. And I don't care if it's etiquette, I don't care if it goes all the way through the ritual work. We make mistakes. We're we're human, you know.
SPEAKER_00You know, I actually have to tell a story of one of the guys that you employed this year as a DDGM for District 21, right? Worstful Jeremy. Um, first off, I love that guy. I mean, he is by far one of my favorite people in masonry, but he has been, whenever we, I'm a committeeman this year over uh public relations. Right. And one of the things that he said at the very beginning of the year is he goes, Matt, our entire goal this year is to have fun and to bring unity back to the craft and levity back to the craft. And I was like, okay, and the team that he assembled to do it, all of our district committeemen, I wish I could share with you some of the stuff that we have going on in that text message thread, although it's definitely not appropriate for the airwaves. But uh, but either way, it's just it's fun, it's enjoyable. Right honorable Greg, um, you know, he's uh kicked our open books, you know, because District 21 is a big district. It's over a hundred miles as the crow flies from the furthest north to furthest south. So either way, uh Right Honorable Greg, he's doing two open books per month, one in the south, one in the north. And then he's also doing school of instruction, which has been immensely helpful. So he's reinvented the district instructor role and done a great job. So that whole message that you have of no, like, you know, we can we can do this and still have fun. But back to your 95% comment, um, I was doing a I was sitting in the East for either an EA or a fellowcraft degree. And it was so funny because uh Jeremy was my senior deacon. I'm sitting up in the East and I totally missed a question. I mean, the guys are standing in front of me and I just missed it. And Jeremy, he kept right there with me. And as soon as he looked at me, he goes, That's all right, you know what you did. Yeah. So, you know, it was just it was just really cool because it was like, man, I try to get these things word perfect as much as I can. And it's like I'm going to mess up something. And, you know, you're either gonna have people like Jeremy that are gonna be like, it's all right, you know what you did, just don't do it next time. And then you're gonna have people on the side, I can't believe he messed up that line. It's like, come on, man, give me a break here. Right.
SPEAKER_02I always feel like the the guy that's actually trying and performing and doing the things are kind of like that uh uh quote about the glad, you know, the gladiator in the arena. You know, you're the one out there, you're taking the cuts, you're taking the strokes of the sword, and you're doing the things. And if you fail, fail greatly. I I love that. If you fail, fail greatly because it's failing small is the same as failing greatly in some of the some of the uh four, you know, some of the old past masters and stuff. But uh you at least got out there and tried.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and honestly, that's the funny thing. I mean, you you said the exact same thing Jeremy said, you just used different words. His his comment is if you're going to mess up, do it with confidence, and nobody's gonna know. So okay.
SPEAKER_01Oh, somebody's gonna know, and they'll let you know that they knew it. But most people will have no idea if you do it with confidence.
SPEAKER_00Well, especially the candidates and the brothers as they're going through the degrees, they're gonna have no idea. And even still, by the time they memorize, you know, and get their proficiency cards and start putting on degrees, they're not gonna know by that point. You know, they're not even gonna remember it. It's just kind of a figment at that point.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00So uh let's we have some questions for you.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Ready to go. Uh I mean, I think everyone knows who you are in the fraternity at this point, generally from your background. And you ran for you know the grand line some years ago, and you've been through the chairs, so we probably don't need to go over your biography as everyone's well versed with it. But um you did do 36 years in the Air Force. I'm curious how you get along with most worshipful Foster. Uh no, he's uh he's Navy. I don't get along with him at all. That's what I was gonna say. I know he's a Navy guy. The Navy and the Air Force seem to have a great, interesting relationship. So it's a moment to quit and he chairs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So so I actually served four years um in the regular Air Force, and then I served 32 and a half years as a civil service in the air. Um I I wanted to stay with the Air Force. I was in the Army for about 14 months as a civilian, and I vowed never to go back to the Army. Obviously, I worked for the Department of Defense. Um, but it was a
Levity, Fellowship, And Mistakes
SPEAKER_02very, very uh rich career in terms of uh schools and learning and the things that I did. Um and uh I loved it. Uh I raised my family with it, you know, uh traveled more as a civilian than I did as a in the Air Force. I was a uh missile maintenance technician, electronics technician, and I told everybody I carried the big lighter and lit the fuse on the ICBMs. Okay, that's what I did. Um so the fuse lighter goes to the bottom of the launch tube and he lights the fuse and he's sacrificial, right? I'm kidding. Um But uh I loved what I did then. I became a I've always been blessed with uh um good memory and a big mouth. Okay. So uh in the Air Force I was able to be a district uh team training branch instructor really early, probably after 11 months, going through dual tech schools, and um I became a trainer, and uh when I got out of the service, I walked out on a Friday as a military walked in as a on a Monday as a civilian, and I was working in electronics laboratory um putting together some really cool stuff. So uh when I did that, uh, you know, I became a manager, uh field manager, and then I moved through the management chain uh as I ran around the Air Force. So I was and then I ended up at Herlbert Field. Anything uh anybody knows anything about Herlbert Field? It used to be the operational landing field for Eglin, and so it was a real small base, and we grew up into the MAGCOM, which was the special operations command, which is a MAGCOM right now. So I was in the build-up of that, and I really had a great time power production foreman. Um so you know, we had a great time uh building the base up to a MAGCOM. So wow.
SPEAKER_01I would love to hear uh what you know about UAPs and uh UFOs being in the kind of a lot of stuff, but that's all right. Yeah, no, I'm I have a that's like aside from Freemasonry, probably an equal or big hobby for me is following what's happening there. That that's gonna be a you buy him dinner conversation. Okay, okay, that's fair. That'll be money well spent for me. Sure. But you did all this work. Um you you like you said, you were primarily an electronics technician, Minuteman 2 systems at Whiteman and later Air Force Special Operations Command at Hurl Burt Field. What did that work teach you about system standards and chain of command that you find yourself using as Grandmaster of Florida?
SPEAKER_02Well, one of the things that everybody needs to understand is this is a volunteer fraternity. So I'm gonna start with that. Uh I believe it's a volunteer fraternity until you say I do. Okay? Until you say, sure, I'll do this job or I'll do that job. Then you have an obligation to the brothers to perform the duty. I like that. What the Air Force taught me, because I was a young man that was uh you know married uh early in life, uh married the love of my life, my high school sweetheart, but uh the Air Force taught me discipline. It get it it let me focus on something that really interested me, which was the ability to troubleshoot, to solve problems, so problem solving was very important. The ability to work in conjunction with others, you know, I work well with others, always have, uh, but the ability to develop their skills to enhance the overall job. And so I I believe in the military uh you kind of learn to do that. You work together as a team. I have a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty people, and we're trying to get a particular focus or get the job done uh to the best of our ability, and you've you've got to use the best qualities from everybody, even if they have bad qualities, right? You have to bring their good qualities forward and use those in a team's concept to get the job done. Um, because uh in the military, lives depend on it, and and um security depends on it, safety depends on it. And if anybody knows anything about military, there's a lot of evaluation, you know, they do a lot of evaluations, we have yearly avows and things like that. But the teams that were being developed, uh it taught me how to develop teams, and the teams that we're we were developing did really, really wonderful. Um and I was I was the first one if we had a problem and I was wrong, I was the first one to admit I was wrong, show me how to do it right. So I I think those qualities of working with people helped me specifically, and of course I was a coach for 20 years with my kids coming through and developed a program here in Navarre for um basketball, uh soccer, baseball. I was always involved in things like that. And um I guess my forte has been able to get people together to accomplish a goal and it be done to the best of our ability. I'm gonna say that. Long-winded answer, but that's basically it. And that's not that doesn't even cover a tenth of what I think about being in the Air Force. Okay, I really loved it.
SPEAKER_00No, but honestly, you you said a concept there that was actually really good, is that if you elevate the entire team, right? If you instruct your weakest link on how to do something, then that makes the entire team strong or the whole chain strong. And so you can actually transpose that directly down to the local lodge level, is something that we're experiencing right now at Lakeland 91, is that we're having these practices for next year's line. We're all getting together and practicing the chairs we're going to be rotating to, assuming the elections go off the way that they are. So, you know, as long as you can get and you can identify your weak link and it's pull that brother aside. Hey, brother, I can see you're struggling with this role, this role, this role, whatever it is. I'll come up here and I'll run as many reps with you as you want. I'm our lodge instructor this year. So it's something that that same concept can be applied to the district level, to the particular lodge level, to degrees, lodge helping each other with degrees. Um you don't have to keep going to the same heavy hitters over and over again. Whenever you have younger Masons that need to be taught this stuff because eventually we're not going to have those heavy hitters to pull on.
SPEAKER_02Right. They'll eventually get old and weak and tired. Um, one of the things, I'll give you a little quick story. We were putting a roof on um outbuilding that we had, and one of the old guys, and and I say old guys, he had already been through the chairs. He was an old past master for Kentucky, great friend of mine, uh, Gene Kovach, and he said, he said, I feel so bad because I'm here and I can't do anything. And Gene was always good for uh, you know, telling a little uh anecdote or a little quick joke or something, you know, and and getting your spirits up a little bit. And I said, I said, Gene, what do you mean? He says, Well, I can't get on the ladders and work on the roof and everything. And I said, Gene, hand out waters. I said, we got to come down off the building, we got to go get waters, we gotta go do this with it. I said, hand out waters and just uh tell us jokes as we're doing it. That was the most enjoyable summer I think that I ever had. Gene since passed away. But um, when you could take somebody that can't do something to the best of their ability and give them something they can do to the best of their ability, that to me is the teen concept, is the brotherhood concept that we're trying to achieve.
SPEAKER_01And then you also mentioned like using the strengths of the people for the overall task that has to get done, and that's part of it, right? Is there are people that get into their eighties and nineties and they still love the fraternity and they still come to lodge, but they have nothing to do and they don't get asked to do anything. And so but there's still work for them. Like if we ask them to be mentors, if we ask them to be catechism instructors, they would love to do that. Sure. Um, and so it's and the other thing I like that you said is you admit when you're wrong.
SPEAKER_03I do.
SPEAKER_01When you're wrong quite a bit too, by the way.
SPEAKER_02I'm just letting you know.
SPEAKER_01I'm only I mean, but that is a uh such a valuable quality in leadership, especially that you can openly admit when you're wrong because it sets the tone for everyone else to admit when they're wrong and not feel like they have to point the finger at someone else or come up with an excuse or hide something they did, that it's okay to be wrong. That's okay. What a lot of BS you eliminate in the whole process by just admitting you're wrong.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I think ego has a lot to do with that and how you're presenting, you know, I don't want to present weakness or anything like that. And to me, it's almost exactly counter it, it's exactly counterintuitive to say I'm never wrong and I know you're not God or Jesus or you know, you're not pure. You've done something wrong in your life. So to me, it's hypocritical to think that way. And I I just believe that we should be able to admit our mistakes and press on. Nobody died, we're good, you know?
SPEAKER_00Well, and and even still, I mean, talk about the blow to the ego, right? So there think about the stakes that are involved with it, right? We messed up a line deer in a degree, we messed up a line deer in an opening or something like that. That's not that big of a deal. I mean, the goal is to be accuracy. I'm I'm not you know deflating that at all, but you're not in a firefight in Iraq with a blue-on-blue scenario. You're just reciting lines in an opening or a closing. It feels that way sometimes when you're doing it though.
SPEAKER_01I was doing a degree once and uh you guys came to lodge, the grand line was there, and
Air Force Career And Leadership Lessons
SPEAKER_01uh they were watching, and when it was I was drenched in sweat. I mean, I have a fear of public speaking to begin with, so it's hard enough just to do it, but to feel the pressure while you're you're under that kind of stress. I literally had a friend come to me and say, You looked worse than a bomb, like a first day bomb disposal expert the whole night, man. I'm like terrified, sweaty. Um and a lot of that just comes because from a place of you want to do a good job and you want to do it right, you don't want to make a mistake.
SPEAKER_02Right. So I always tell the I always tell the district deputies when I go visit them, and you know, they're doing, we're doing the GMOVs, and I say, listen, everything will be okay tonight. Everything will be fine.
SPEAKER_01So helpful.
SPEAKER_02I said, and then I tell them, I said, it's like a train wreck, though. I said, if you're the conductor in a train wreck, your train is slowly going off the track, there's nothing you can do, and all you can do is just smile and go with the train wreck because there's nothing you can do. But it'll be okay in the end because nobody's gonna die. Nobody's gonna, you know, we're not getting shot at. And so it's been fun. We've had some good GMOVs. All of them have been really, really great. So well, you mentioned.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. That that that District 21 GMOV, I mean, the rain was terrible that day. It kept a lot of people away from it. So we had enough people in our SVP for like to fill the entire venue that we had, the short. Reiners uh club down there. Right. And like the rain, like I think the room was like half full or something like that. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, this is so bad.
SPEAKER_02I I'm telling you, my wife and I really, you know, Joyce is um her and I have always been one to make the best of every situation. That's that's why we've been married 48 years. And um we go to the events and we understand that life has to happen. So life gets in the way, and we understand that. We feel bad for the district deputy grandmasters when they're preparing the food and they're preparing the venue for everybody, and then they're like, oh my God, I got egg on my face. And I'm like, no, you're good. Everything is fine. We had a beautiful time. Uh, you did a great job, and you're doing a great job in your district. So that's that's the way I feel about it.
SPEAKER_00So I do have a lot of laughs. I I do have a question about that, though, because they were talking about pulling a prank on you. And and I don't, you know, this is the first time you and I have had like a longer form conversation. They were going to get a sheet cake made for you, but inside the sheet cake was going to be uh meatloaf with mashed potatoes on the top of it. Do you really hate meatloaf that much? Horrible.
SPEAKER_02I would have fired every one of them. They would have all lost their jobs. I don't care who was involved in it, they would have all been non-Masons after that. That's hysterical. I don't, my wife loves meatloaf. She would she would tell me, No, you can't do that because I love meatloaf. Okay. I I choose not to eat meatloaf. I tell them if they're gonna have meatloaf, I'm gonna bring a water burger bag with a water burger and that's what I'm gonna eat. So nice. Uh but yeah, but see that kind of stuff, you know, when they when I got told, and I got told about that, you'll you know, we're gonna play a prank on you. And I said, well, as long as it isn't degrading, okay? That's that's my whole thing. And I can take a joke.
SPEAKER_01And so um, don't play with the man's food though. That's not a fun joke to play, like especially if it's something you don't like to eat. That is not cool. Um, but you mentioned Lady Joyce a couple times now. You mentioned you've been married for 48 years. Uh-huh. So that's longer than Matt's been alive. That is true. Um that's 1978. Yes. Correct? And that is also the year you both graduated high school, is that true?
SPEAKER_02Uh, correct. I I actually graduated on work study early. Uh my wife graduated. Overachiever. Yeah. She she graduated early also, and 79 would have been her graduation. She actually graduated in the summer of 78. Um, very intelligent woman. I get uh all my brains from her and my common sense from me. Uh so that's what I always say, not really. Um but we've known each other 50 years, and we got married out of high school. Uh she was my sweetheart, and um we've had a wonderful, I think we've had a wonderful great life. Now, sometimes, you know, she might disagree with that.
SPEAKER_00Your mileage may vary.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, uh, but uh uh it's just been a wonderful um her support, love you know, she's my best friend. I'm just gonna tell you that right now. I've got friends, I've got good friends, and I've got real good friends, and she's my best friend. And uh we've been that way ever since I met her.
SPEAKER_01So that term my better half is uh a term that is used for a reason. Absolutely. Yeah. 1978, almost 50 years. I'm sure you guys are looking forward to that one. Um but that's a a lifetime together. And fifty years later, you come out of high school, married, you've lived this whole life, and now she's the first lady of Florida Freemasonry. So that begs the question: what has the craft asked of your family and what has it given back to your family?
SPEAKER_02Well, as you know, I was raised in 07. Um so I met some wonderful guys that were Masons. I didn't know a lot about Masonry, but in uh when I was 33, I could have become a Mason and I didn't. Okay, um, because I moved from Illinois uh down to Florida. The guy that I was was trying to get me into Masonry in Illinois, it just wasn't time. I was a young man, young family. I was very, very involved in community, community service and everything. And when I got to Florida, of course, uh everything, you know, we're in a new place, I've got a new job, I'm trying to get everything situated, and masonry was in the furthest from my mind at that time. So when I became a Mason, uh a good friend of mine died, and I looked around, and my wife had masonry in her background. Her mom was a 48-year Eastern star. Her uncles and and everything were masons. Her father wasn't, but everybody associated with the family was part of Masonry. And I didn't really know that. Uh I just know that her dad was a very, very wonderful man. But when when my friend died, when I went to the funeral, they had a Masonic service for him. And I started looking around, and all these guys were from all over. He actually was buried in Alabama. Um, they had like just a little square encompasses on their collar or just something. They had a ring, and it really interested me. And I said, you know, what is this camaraderie? What brought these people here besides my friend who was absolutely influential? There must have been 150 Masons there to send him off. And uh the guy that I worked for was a Mason, and I didn't even know it because I hadn't paid attention to the signs and symbols. So I actually was raised in 07, okay, um, after being uh uh uh I'll call it a mid-level manager, managing people, things like that. And um he was a Mason, but I had to, he was from South Carolina, I had to ask him three times, tell me about this masonry stuff. And I had to approach him three different times. Finally, I went into his office, slammed the door closed, sat down, and I said, I've asked you about masonry twice, and you've denied my questions. What is going on? He says, I was waiting for the third time for you to ask.
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_01And I was like, Wow. Well, that used to be a rule in Freemasonry, right? You had to alert them.
SPEAKER_02You had to ask three times before you could invite them. In his in his jurisdiction in South Carolina, you did ask three times. Here in Florida, you know, we can approach somebody and you know, kind of mention it. And um you can't outright uh well, I guess you can outright ask them, but I always say, you know, have you ever thought about masonry? You'd be a good fit for masonry. And and the thing is, and they would say, why? And I said, because you're a good man. You do things well, you you um are a good father or good, you know, the the whole thing. Um, but I was actually 47 when I became a mason. And so I always say when somebody comes into masonry, we have to kind of take their life into account also. What have they done? When you talk about a thousand miles a living or ten thousand miles a living, well, they might have ran a corporation, you know, and were worried about whether or not they can run the business of the lodge. Okay. Um, so masonry to me, we have our civilian side and we have our Masonic side. Do you know everything about Masonry when you're a worstful master? No. And you will never know everything about masonry, even as a grandmaster, no. Uh, but the issue is is we have a lot of living, we have a lot of miles, so there's a lot of things that we can take care of, uh, budgets, business, things like that, that that uh we we should take into account when we're trying to make up our line for our lodges. And I think we don't do that. Some of the older guys say, no, you know, they need to start as a Tyler and then they need to move through eleven chairs. Well, what if the guy's great in business and banking? You know, great manager.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah, that's one of the things that I've seen a lot is if you've run a business, they think you're gonna be good at running the lodge, but it's so not true because you said it in the beginning. These this these people are volunteering for this. You're not paying them.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, I can tell you I'm gonna fire you if you don't do your job as an employer,
Building Teams By Using Strengths
SPEAKER_01but you you tell that to a junior deacon, he'll say, Okay, bye, and he's gone. You never see him in lodge again.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh so I think those people that have done any kind of volunteer organization are the diamonds for Freemasonry in the rough, because they understand you have to get consensus from people. You have to get them to believe in what you're asking them to do, and you have to make sure they have time to do it and capable of doing it, and all the stuff that you don't have to worry about in business because you can just tell them to do it. Probably in the military too, right? You can just tell people to do it.
SPEAKER_02You give directives in the military as a civilian, you don't give orders. So you give directives. You will do this when it's they have to do it.
SPEAKER_00I I also imagine it is dependent on the type of business, right? So, Chris, you're a lot more polished whenever it comes to speaking to people than I am. I'm in construction, right? Construction, we have a way of speaking to each other that is not conducive to the lodge. It's just not. I get it. So so next year, I'm a junior warden right now. So next year, um, you know, we were talking about um the guy who's coming up to be our worstful master next year, Neff. Um, he's in insurance and management and all this other stuff, and he is so good at problem solving and conflict resolution, way better than I am. Because I'm like, why don't you just shut up and do, you know, do the thing, right? It's it's really not that big of a deal. Uh, but Neff is so good, brother. I hear you. I uh and I hear your concerns, and I'm like, who is this guy? Like, this is insane to me. So yeah, I also imagine it the the personalities come into con or come into the formula there at some point of hey, while this guy might be really good at running, say, a GC business, right? Because that's that's my world. He's also like a bull in a china shop, right? He might not be the best to be the worstful master of lodge until he learns how to temper that down a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Right. Subduing our passions is very important. Um, and you talked about construction. I work with construction crews for many, many, we were doing rivet mile projects and on the missiles and things like that. So I I've always been a crew guy. So yes, we talk to each other in pretty crude ways that we can't talk to each other in a lodge. I I get that. Um but one of the things that I l I had to learn to do when I started managing people was I had to learn to listen. What's really going on? Uh I always say, you know, when the guy comes in, he's disgruntled, he's yelling at everybody, he's causing problems in the lodge. I just had that situation occur here about a month ago. And I said, Do me a favor, before you take any action, I said, give him a shout, take him to lunch. And they were like, really? And I said, please give him a call and take him to lunch. And I said, Go find out what the underlying factors are. Because this guy don't normally do this. And sure enough, they gave him a call. The work the district deputy grandmaster called me and said, Oh my gosh, you called it. He said, I took him to lunch. I found out he's going through cancer treatments. Oh, gosh. You know, there was a lot of things that were going on in his life as a worshipful master. Now, mind you, he was worshipful master of a lodge, and it was like, that doesn't sound like this guy. I said, go see what's going on. And so the lodge brothers were able to step in and help him kind of manage some of the stress of the lodge and then help him around, you know, mow his lawn and things like that, because he was too tired after uh chemotherapy to do that. So I think a lot of times we can't see the forest for the trees. We we think that they're just being a uh, you know, I'm not gonna cuss, but they're just being a pain, okay? And a lot of times there's an underlying factor finances, life. You know, this is not just Masonic life, this is real life. I I shouldn't say real life and Masonic life are different, but they really are.
SPEAKER_01Anyone that's in a Masonic world knows what you're talking about. I think we all get that. Like Okay. Yep.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, we have bills to pay and we gotta go to work and things like that. And sometimes that can bleed over, and our passions get a little bit out of whack. And so that's important.
SPEAKER_01So you guys are talking about construction and building, which leads perfectly into my next question for you.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, your message to the craft. It asked brothers to carry the building blocks of our fraternity to restore the walls built upon these foundations. Restore seems like a bit of a deliberate word you use there. It is in your own assessment, uh, what came down and what does rebuilt look like when you hand over the gavel in May of next year.
SPEAKER_02Well, one of the things that I I believe that we've lost in is the ability to have civil discourse between brothers in lodges. Um we have and I'm not blaming Gen X, Gen Z, I don't know anything about all that stuff. I'll do it for you. Come on, Matt. What's wrong with your generation? Well Plenty of Well, here's but here's the thing. I believe every brother should be heard, but I s I also believe we should be gentlemen when we do it. Right. Okay. Right.
SPEAKER_00That's fair.
SPEAKER_02And I kind of I just have witnessed that we don't like we like to hear people say what we want them to hear. Uh what we want them, what we want to hear. Right. Uh we're not listening. So I like brothers to wake up and understand that we're um so diverse in our craft. And the only way we're gonna work together is if we have a single focus on what we're going to do, and we work towards that common goal. We can be from all diverse backgrounds and still work towards a common goal. And I believe we've gotten away from that. And when we got away from that, we quit affecting uh world events or world. 100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So Oh yeah, we can't even get a fish fry organized in our city. So how are you gonna do fish fry big problems? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So those are the walls that I'm talking about. The walls have crumbled a little bit. We've lost a little bit of the focus on what the you know what that's like our our lodge building. Uh we talk about lodge buildings. Are we trying to save our lodge building or are we trying to save masonry? What are we doing? Right. Okay. So I believe the focus has moved away from masonry, and we've isolated and caught down into um, I'm not going to say clicks, but we've gotten down and isolated into lodges. Yeah. And we need to, I love to travel. I love to go and meet different people, which is why I'm here. Um and when we do that, we broaden our horizons, we expand our influence, and we're able to affect the overall general population then. Uh and I feel like we've gotten away from that. You know, our founding fathers wrote, really wrote our Constitution and wrote, or they had a great influence in it. And it was amazing, but we've had wars and things over the years, and then I almost feel like um uh the availability, I talk about Matt's age, the availability of information coming, I want to know now. And I get frustrated if I cannot know now. Well, what if I teach you how to do it and I show you, I see, I I I understand your your level of understanding, um, but mine is different. I'm from a different generation. So I think we need to rebuild those walls, which is talking to each other like gentlemen, like men again and having a common goal. And that that is crumbled. Our foundations are still there. Yes. Um, but those are the walls that need to be as to a year out of office. I'm hoping I wake everybody up and they understand that they're lions again, they're not sheep, don't follow everything. Um my biggest frustration, and we'll get into that here in a little bit, my biggest frustration is when we go to lodge and say who are we voting for? What are we voting for? Hey, are is this good or bad for me? Well, you're a man. You're an individual. You should read the information and you should make your own mind up.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And your vote should count, even if it doesn't uh you know, if the consensus isn't your way, you
Civil Discourse And Waking Up Voters
SPEAKER_02should accept the consensus of the unanimous vote or of the of the you know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's really you have three represent we have a representative government in Masonry, technically. I mean, you have three representatives from every lodge that go and vote on behalf of the lodge for the candidates they want. And this is where I started to see that Freemasonry was uh not that men are involved and men can corrupt almost anything that they get involved in because politics gets into the picture. Um and then uh when I became one of those chairs and I was going with the.
SPEAKER_02Let me do this for you. Let's not say politics, like on politics of the day. Let's say political rhetoric. Political rhetoric internal political rhetoric. Otherwise, I want to be a this or and I want to be a that. It's not a good thing. The rhetoric is important. You're right. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a hundred percent. It's it's about like convincing people through your you know, your words that you want them to do something instead of letting the process happen, kind of. Sure, sure. Um, and I saw that happen when I started having to go to vote on behalf of my lodge. I took it like, wow, that was my first real important job for the lodge, right? And so you're like, I represent my lodge. Whoa, like, okay. Um so I wanted to hear what everyone had to say, and I wanted to see what the majority wanted, and I said that okay, that's clear. I have direction, I know what to do. And we got there, and the people I was with said, we're here, we we can do what we want, you know. And I thought, what? This isn't what are you talking about? I'm not gonna do what I want. Like, even if I disagree with the majority, I'm representing them, but they said, ah, and then all of that rhetoric comes in and like, or a technicality and the parsing of words. Well, if we learn something new, they didn't know we have to make the best decision as men, and you know, they didn't get that information. And technically, I understand that that's a real thing, but like it's not always happening, right? Right? That's for special case.
SPEAKER_00I will say, for this past year, um at Grand Lodge was my first year as a voting delegate at Grand Lodge as a junior. You got to see the lion wake up. I got to see the whole thing, man. And and I tell you what, it really chapped my hide whenever I had to vote for something that I didn't like, but yet I have to vote the way the lodge wanted to vote. And I'm just like, man, I really don't like this legislation or or this, whatever the thing is. Like, uh, but they wanted to do this, so okay, I'll do it.
SPEAKER_01Well, you have the opportunity, right? You have the opportunity in Lodge to stand up and say why you don't like it and try to convince the majority of what your view is on it. And so it's uh the majority didn't buy it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and even still, like, and this is this is something that I noticed, and I'd have to go back and look at my paperwork to see exactly which ones it was, but especially on the legislation. The legislation, as it was written out and everything that we read in lodge to get everybody's vote on how whatever they wanted to do. And then we got to Grand Lodge and it was explained more thoroughly. And I was like, well, daggum it, like that would have changed everybody's opinion at my lodge had we had that information beforehand. So I don't know what uh most of the things. It's my first year is voting, so I don't know if that's common, if that's a normal thing, but that was just something I noticed from Grand Lodge this year.
SPEAKER_01They uh they do uh I think they're doing a better and better job of giving opportunities for people to understand it beforehand. Like they I usually do a video call where they kind of go over and let you ask questions. And like the problem is people don't engage in the process. Right. So you're waiting to know last name. Oh yeah, that's that's a thing that they've always done.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, we used to we used to literally go to the districts and have district meetings to cover the legislation. And then it got into like a Zoom, you know, then you know COVID kind of hit, and everybody says, well, we're gonna do it via Zoom or however um whatever format forum we could do it in. Um and so we kind of do the Zoom calls, and you know we might have, you know, 400 people online and two people ask a question. And you know that there's more questions than that. Uh that's my biggest frustration, is that I would rather somebody have a question about a piece of legislation knowing that they looked at it thoroughly and looked at the digest, than I would having somebody lean over to me and whisper in my ear, hey, what are we voting for?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02You know, that tells me that they didn't come prepared and they're not taking it serious the processes, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and even still from your point of view, I mean, if you're going around and doing these district things or even the Zoom calls where you've got hundreds of Masons that are on it and nobody's asking the question, I personally I'm a little, I guess, jaded, I'm a little more calloused, if you will, of hey, if you didn't ask questions, that's on you. You did not ask the question, you didn't seek clarification, but at the same time, being what we should be as Masons, it should be hey, I really want to make sure all of you guys understand this, right? But if they don't ask the questions, they're not much that you can do about that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So the goes through a process. He most wishful, you can talk. About probably the process better than we can, but it goes through jurisprudence where they try to look at all sides of it and try to think for the brothers what could be the issue, and then they're looking at it on the fraternity side too, saying, Do we need this? And is this yeah? So before we even get it, it's been vetted heavily and questioned, and then it's meant for us to do the to do that even more, to look at it and question it.
SPEAKER_02It is. A lot of times the presenter of a piece of legislation should at least attend the jurisprudence committee meeting because if somebody has a question about it, we don't know the thinking of the mind of the person that was submitting the legislation. Uh we had many pieces of legislation last year submitted, and we didn't really the person that submitted them did not come to the jurisprudence meeting, so there was a lot of internal questions with the committee. And you've got to understand the grand line is not a voting member of jurisprudence. The grandmaster and the grand line. We are there to oversee, to watch, to see the process, and if we have a question, we can ask a question. Other than that, it's a jurisprudence committee. Uh the grandmaster is always in charge of every committee, but he doesn't control and run the level of uh conversation or whatever might happen. And we do not get a vote in the process of should we reject or accept this piece of legislation? A lot of people think we do, and we do not. Um most of the legislation comes into the grand secretary's office, uh, is looked at by the grand secretary, comes out, it's sent to the elected grand lodge line, and then it goes to jurisprudence, and they look at the digest and all that, make sure that it's correct, it's written correctly, and that it it doesn't um you know, whether it's a constitutional amendment or whether it's just a regulation or something like that, and then they'll bring it into jurisprudence and discuss it. Um we send those packages out to them like 30 days before and give them an opportunity to go through the digest and look.
SPEAKER_01So But even jurisprudence doesn't make the decision. They just make a recommendation. Okay, we've we think it should be rejected, but it's up to you, the brothers, to decide.
SPEAKER_02That is correct. But now think about what we just talked about when it comes to going to the the vote, and you let's say that it's 50-50 and you need one person to uh carry the vote, and that person leans over and says, What are we voting for again? Right. What is that about? So I I really believe that it's very important that our brothers wake up and get back in the legislative process again.
SPEAKER_01Participate, right? Participate. Just participate, get involved. Yes, I agree with you.
SPEAKER_02Very important.
SPEAKER_01So um getting back to your message, you put the fraternity third after God in your family. Was that ordering intentional? Absolutely. What should a worship master actually do differently in his lodge because of it?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that our so uh to be non-secular, I'm not a religious man. I'm very spiritual, but I'm not a religious man. I want you to understand that. I identify the same way. Yeah. Um, but I do believe, I do believe that we have to account for the things we do here on earth, good or bad. Um I believe that when we understand there's a higher power than us, we're gonna take into account that eventually one day we're gonna be accountable for what we're doing even in the lodge. So I I really believe that uh the great great architect of the universe should be first. Okay, so God should be first. In my life it is. Uh I pray before I get in the car that I don't have a tree fall on me like it almost did last time we were on the highway. Um but um I particularly put it in that order because we also have family. And if you look at a design that I have on uh the notebooks that I give the district deputy grandmasters, I use the circumpunct or those the um circle with two point. So you know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I put three circles inside there, and every circle encompasses the center point and encompasses and touches each other. So I really believe without the three of those, the one singular man cannot be a better man. If you leave God out, then family and fraternity is gonna drive you, and then of course, fraternity out, if you're a Mason, if you leave fraternity out, and so on and so forth.
God Family Fraternity And Balance
SPEAKER_02But we always have to take into account creator. The next thing is our family. We cannot do anything without our family. If our family said, Hey dad, you're gone too long, you're gone away, why are you always gone? You missed my birthday, you missed my anniversary, and all that kind of thing, you're not gonna have a family for very long. Okay. And I'll tell you, I had a brother that was a fifty-two-year Mason, he asked for a Masonic funeral, and of course, when he died, it's the family's wishes, and his wife said you he will not you will absolutely not do a funeral for him, a Masonic funeral. And she said it in this manner. She said, You had him when he was alive, I have him in death. You will not do and so I later on I talked to her, and it was about the fact that he was always away. And he did. He was really, really um, he was a district instructor, he was in our district, one, two, and three, always was at lodge somewhere, always gone, but at the neglect of his family. And in the neglect of his and you can't, you can't do that. Um, so there has to be some kind of balance there. And then fraternity. Uh fraternity is a family also. And I believe there has to be a balance. We have to learn the secret word of a master mason, which is no. Oh, he said it. The grandmaster said it out loud. I don't care. We're gonna get emails and phone calls, use it. Um, and the reason is is because too many times, at the expense of God or fam uh or family, we do the Masonic thing. And we should balance that or learn to balance that. And I say that as a grandmaster who has to be. Yeah, at Grand Lodge. So we celebrate her birthday either early or after Grand Lodge, or now that she's down there in Orlando, she comes over and has lunch with us and we do birthday. But for many years, you know, we didn't ever celebrate we only celebrated one of her birthdays, and she's 20 years old together on her birthday. All the other times has always been before or after. So we celebrate it, but that was a sacrifice that we made, you know.
SPEAKER_01So But that's a choice, right? I mean, I'm the same way. The year I was master, my wife wanted to have a baby, and I told her we need to wait two more years because I don't think it's fair for you or for a new baby for me to be doing what I'm doing and trying to be there for you guys. So we actually held off having a child until I got out of the East. Sure. But I think that's a responsible decision because you know, I it's not like I'm putting fraternity over family. It's I want to make sure that I don't put fraternity over family.
SPEAKER_02You're still trying to keep the balance of family, fraternity, and and religion you know, in your uh beliefs. So you're still trying to keep some balance there. And that's a to me, that's a wise decision. It's it's because you have to marry the craft almost for a year when you're the grandmaster, you have to do the same thing as Worshipful Master. Um I I really believe you have to do that when you are an elected officer. So secretary, treasurer, uh on the six elected officers, you know.
SPEAKER_01But like you said, that's a choice you made. You agreed it. You agreed to do that, take it on.
SPEAKER_00So here's the thing, I would almost argue for DI's DDGM and any of the elective grand line, it's actually more pressure than what you would ever get by sitting in the three principal chairs or even the Secretary of Treasure for uh for the lodge. Because all right, now you're committed to two meetings a month and maybe a couple of you know extracurriculars if you got to, I don't know, change your cell phone plan or do something with the bank accounts. Whereas whenever you're running for the Grand South, I mean, the guys that are running for the Grand South right now, they are traveling every single week around the state and campaigning around the state. And then you do it again whenever you finally get to the Grand South. You're supposed to uh go to every single GMOV, which is from June until November. Um, you know, and then you're doing it right now as Grandmaster. You're traveling the state and you're still going to all of these GMOVs as Grandmaster. So you've got what four years of June through Sept uh through November. You've been booked. I mean, almost every single weekend with these things. So the workload is just insane.
SPEAKER_02It it is uh an insane workload. It uh so running for the Grand South, they'll put approximately sixty to eighty thousand miles on their vehicle all within the state of Florida. That's about normal. And then while we're traveling, uh, we'll put sixty to seventy thousand miles on our vehicle in traveling. And I hate flying, so I try to drive everywhere if I can. Um but it gives my wife and I a lot of time to talk. I got a captive audience at 80 miles an hour, she can't jump out. So but uh um uh it is a huge commitment to your life, and that's why guys that do it that that have a full-time job or work or have businesses, I applaud them because they are they are still accomplishing the things that they need to do and still serving the craft, and that's that's the job. Uh DD I uh DDGMs and DIs, um something this year changed a little bit, maybe. I don't know if it's changed. Uh if I ask somebody to do a job, I expect them to get the job done. I do. They volunteered, I I ask them, this is the commitment, can you do the job? And of course, if life gets in the way, we've had you know a couple of things happen where the district deputy has gotten hurt or something. Um but we understand that. But that's the same way with zone committeen, state chairman, uh, your your district committeeman, if they're gonna do the job for you, hold them accountable to do the job because there's somebody in that line that is diligently trying to get the job done for the grandmaster or for the craft, really. Uh and when you fail to do your job, uh, you know, they need to replace you. I really believe that. And we haven't done that in the past, and I replaced a lot of people this year, I got a lot of people in new positions. Some some guys are just worse. I say just worseful masters. That's the most working men that and secretaries in our fraternity. Um, but some are worseful masters, past masters that I've asked to fill positions like state level chairmen. But they have brilliant ideas or PhDs and education and things like that, and they're doing a great job.
SPEAKER_01That's what changes us from an old boys club to a functional organization.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. We need more of that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, 100%. Yeah. And here's the thing, it's it's not a slight if somebody is not being able to execute their job properly, you know, for whatever reason, whether it be, you know, their own bandwidth or whether it be that they're cable tow or or anything, it's not a slight on that person when the goal is to better the entire organization. Correct. So I personally I wouldn't take that as a slight. I would take that, I would if I were that guy that got removed, I would take that as, hey, I failed. I've got something that I need to handle that's more a little more important in my life, and then maybe I can come back and do the job better next time.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_01And I think a lot of people just have a fear or a lack of understanding, and they think if they get removed from a position, they're done. Their career in Freemasonry is over, which isn't the case at all. Are you kidding me?
SPEAKER_00I I want my career. No, I'm just kidding. Career.
SPEAKER_01I I even hate to say the word career in Freemasonry.
SPEAKER_02It's kind of a weird thing, but I I really believe it's always the right place at the right time for the right individual.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And if you're not doing anything, you know, I've had guys say, what do I need to do to even be considered to be a DI or a district deputy? I said, Well, have you gone to the schools, L O T C, MM, do you know the digest, or do you know the uh have you gotten any cards? You know, any of your cards. Um and and so you can look at what they've
Accountability For Officers And Chairs
SPEAKER_02been involved in. Well, I go out and I have a fish fry every every month. Okay, but but what are you doing in masonry? I I know you do the fish fry, but do you know the work, the ritual work? You want to be a DI, but you don't know the ritual work. So I I I really believe that um the right place, right time, right person makes a world of difference. And and it's like, are they hearing your name? Are they seeing you do and and I like to see things like guys that are doing things for out without trying to get the recognition for doing them. Okay, so they're doing the things, and you say when you make the call and say, Who's really a mover and shaker in your district? And they say this guy is, and it's like, wow, I need to pay more attention to that because I didn't realize he was doing this, you know.
SPEAKER_00So you mentioned a training program just now. Uh you mentioned LOTC. So, and I'm kind of going off script, Chris. I apologize. Go ahead. The Lodge Officer Training Program is what you're saying. Yeah, referencing it. I've heard some rumors that that's potentially going to be uh required training in order to sit in the three principal chairs. Is that on the horizon or is that just Mason's talking?
SPEAKER_02Well, we do MLT and Master Mason 1, 2, and 3. So any anything that is a requirement for you to sit in a chair was uh, of course, legislation. You make your legislation, the craft makes the legislation. They've tried to overturn that legislation or grandfather in uh brothers three times. They actually did it kind of in a roundabout way the third time. You're only supposed to be able to do it twice, and then you have to wait three years before it's presented at the floor again. But the way they wrote it, it wasn't caught the first time. So I caught it last year. I said this is the third time this has been through. We did some research and found out, but it's got to wait three years now to grandfather, for instance. Um but if if the LOTC is going to be made a requirement, it has to go through legislative process, jurisprudence, and the craft has to accept it. Nobody can make this a requirement. I can't make it a requirement uh for them to have that. Uh there's nothing on the horizon that I know of, uh, but I don't know. You know, it could be a legislation. Anyone can write legislation, right? Right. Anybody can write the legislation. And we haven't we've been we we're given a precursor of the legislation. I haven't seen that, Matt. Okay. Yeah. So I haven't seen anything associated with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm just I'm just thinking from again from a longevity perspective. I mean, you've got people about Master Mason 123 and MLT, which was already legislation whenever I became a Mason, so it was already expected of me. But you know, there's some guys that that's very controversial for them and that's very contentious, and they don't want to do it. And I had a scenario where a junior warden stood up and the grandmaster at the time was in our lodge and he said, I don't care what you say, I'm not doing that. And I'm like, buddy, you can't say that to the grandmaster. He's sitting right there. So it was it was just one of those things. And so I'm sitting here thinking, you know, again, just you know, throwing stuff against the wall. But if you have LOTC that gets brought up on legislation and then to be required, one, it is brought about by the brother. So point taken right there. That's a great point. Uh and then two, that's also going to be a highly contentious conversation if it does become legislation that we have to vote on. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Why why would that be contentious? I I like I did the LOTC because it was a proficiency card. I think you get a purple card for that one. And I was like Pokemon, I had to collect them all.
SPEAKER_02Right. So I did it. I'm the I'm the same way. I really am. I don't have my brown card. That's the only one I don't have. That was a tough one, I'm not gonna lie. Probably. Well, I cry at funerals. That's why I don't have my brown card.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm just telling you. All right. Fair enough. I mean, I cry too. It's hard to get through. I cried a Master Mason degree, so uh but I think that the issue, the controversial part of Master Mason 123 wasn't that you had to get educated on this for me, because I had issue with Master Mason 123, and it wasn't the education, it was that I had to chase someone around the district to get that education. It was at inconvenient times, at inconvenient places, it really interrupted my life. So I've always had issue with that program because of that. Uh but uh if you give me a program that's like, hey, it's a 12-month course and you got to do it at home on your own, right? I'll do that course. And I don't know why anyone would have issue with that.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's actually interesting you say that. So I I just got my green card uh proficiency for fellow graduation. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm working on my blue card. Thank you. And and I'm working on my blue card. And first off, man, the second half of that master mason degree, oof. That's right. That's that's rough.
SPEAKER_01Uh there's a lot of familiar sounding names and numbers get jumbled up and it gets too.
SPEAKER_00I just opened, I went to open books, I think it was like last week or two weeks ago or something like that, whatever we had it back at Lakeland Lodge. And I open up the second half of the Master Mason degree, and I'm reading the paragraph that King Solomon starts off on, and I'm like, ugh. I gotta memorize all of this. It's funny, it's fun. I did not know that if you if you complete Lodge Officer training course, that's also a proficiency card. I had no idea. The purple card, I believe. Yeah. Well, now I gotta get the purple card. You have to.
SPEAKER_02You have to so kind of the the process of the uh education and the way we're going. I love having uh Jeff Foster in there as a grand secretary. He's an IT guy, you know, and oh yeah. And so he loves going to get things easier for everybody. We're we're we're trying to utilize the concept of like you were saying, Chris, where hey, listen, I've got a full-time job, I've got a family, I'm I'm traveling around. If I could do this in my own time on my computer, get graded, and it go into my record, uh, I would do it.
SPEAKER_01You know, and so we're seeing we wouldn't do that, right? Right.
SPEAKER_02We're using that concept and we're trying to, and of course, Jeff's old military guy. In the military, we're used to going on taking the um whatever course it may be, and you'll get your certificate printed out and it goes right into your record. You know, they did that in the military and Air Force many, many years ago. So we're trying to move in that direction. Um do you guys remember or have you ever heard? I know Matt probably, I don't know if you've heard of this, what the uh Wardens Workshops. Do you remember the Wardens Workshops?
SPEAKER_00I've heard of masters and wardens, but not Warden's workshops.
SPEAKER_02Uh Wardens Workshops, what they did, I was probably one of the last ones in 07 or 08, um, is they would pull the junior and senior wardens aside, they would have a class, and you would go through, and it was a warden's workshop, how to be b how to be a worshipable master. So you would design your year as a junior warden, and you started as a junior warden designing your year as master, what do you want to see accomplished, and things like that. And then you had it, you know, you had sections on the digest or sections on how to be you know do ritual work. So it's it was very important. The warden's workshop kind of got you prepared for it, and all of a sudden it went away. And it was like, why did you get rid of that? Well, a lot of that has to deal with um the committees the grandmaster assigns and the money associated with the committee assigned. Uh it was costing a lot of money to to get guys together, and the traveling team that was doing the warden's workshops, it was costing a lot of money to do that, and the brothers wanted to do away with it. Okay, so the budgets are real important when you're looking at things. Uh, what do you want to fund in education? Um, and the warden's workshops went away. We I would love to see them come back, uh, but in a come back in a form like a Teams or a uh Zoom or or something like
Training, LOTC, And Education Online
SPEAKER_02that, to where we can have the you know, we have the York York Wright College right now. They do that. I could be at home, I could be traveling, I can get on my computer and do it. Um, but we're moving in that direction, just to let you guys know that.
SPEAKER_01That's exciting. Yep. Um, and I I don't know how long we have you most wishful. So uh let us know if we're getting we're going long, but there's uh some important stuff to do. Honestly, put a two-hour block for this. Excellent. Because I talk a lot. Okay. Excellent. That makes me happy. I mean, I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I know Matt does. And these days they go long for their four-hour interviews, but we're not going to do that to you.
SPEAKER_00Uh, until you get on the Sean Ryan show, and then it's like a six or eight hour interview. Good night. I don't know. I don't know how the man has the attention span for it. I don't.
SPEAKER_01All right. Yeah, that's his job, right? Yeah, really. Um we definitely want to cover with you the Masonic justice ruling decisions and the directives you've been putting out.
SPEAKER_00Um which, by the way, before we start, bravo. Oh my goodness. We covered that here on the show whenever it came out, and I know that basically every episode we've talked about it. Yes. Oh, it's it's been phenomenal. So well well done, sir. Respect. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, it was um just you know, um it wasn't it took me almost eight months to come to that conclusion, as that was what I was gonna do. Okay. So I started going over the rulings and decisions, I started going over the Effects of lives. I started going over the legal process. I think I could be a legal lawyer in Armasonic Digest now from the research on it.
SPEAKER_00Sir, you're the grandmaster. You are the digest.
SPEAKER_02Well, I know that, but you know, I'm still human, so I do make mistakes. That's that's a thing that guys don't understand. But we have the ability to draw on some of the most brilliant minds that we have in our fraternity. And one of the main things that I believe in are the vote of the craft. I was I was elected by the majority of the brothers in the craft. I serve the craft as grandmaster, and the decisions I make affect the craft. And they affect the guys, the the guys that didn't vote for me as well as the guys that voted for me. Okay. So when the ruling and decision came out, I wasn't happy with it. And I'll discuss a little bit later how the Grand Lodge line works together. We always have to remember.
SPEAKER_01I was on the receiving end of this. And I understand. Like you, I became an expert on our Masonic system of justice. And so I love, I think the listeners want to know what their perspective is as someone that was kind of on the other side of that.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, the the whole thing is I was asked five questions. And I'm one of those guys that I go to sleep and I'll wake up at three in the morning and I start, you know, I I just have to do it. My mind doesn't go to sleep. And the five questions were very poignant. If the craft votes to eliminate a law that they felt was made illegally, or it was made um out of out of due process, out of normal processes, if the craft votes to eliminate that, then is everything associated with that null and void? Okay, so when I looked at everything and I and I got down, I kept using the word ex post facto. A lot of brothers were um kind of prosecuted after the law came out. They they went back so almost six or seven weeks and prosecuted brothers for things they said before. And that was one of the things that came out is that due process. What is one of our primary um precepts of Masonic uh law, and that's justice. Our justice system has to be followed. Uh, you saw the directive I put out was also we will follow the justice system uh to the letter. I'm very, very adamant about that. Um so there were five questions asked, and I reviewed each question. I actually threw one out and I talked to some brilliant minds, and I said, the way I feel is this domino would not have fallen, then nothing would have occurred associated with that first domino falling. So do I have the authority or do it not the authority? Um, because you're setting precedent, you have to understand you have a lot of history and a lot of um you know past, and then can we say um if this wouldn't have happened, nothing else would have happened but for this. And they said, Well, you're the grandmaster, you can actually make a ruling and decision based on this, but it needs to cover every question that was asked. And I said, Okay. So I was asked, Do I have the right to face my accuser? You do. That's in the justice. That's m that's justice. That's not just Masonic justice. That's justice. That's in our constitution. Yes. Do I have the right to cross-examination of the accuser? Yes. Or depose him, yes. Do I have the right to due process? Yes. Do I have the right? Um can I be prosecuted ex post facto? No. You can't make a law today that brings people in to the legal system five years before. So these things were were really I lost a lot of sleep over it. Talked to a lot of people, uh, a lot of brothers that were knowledgeable, uh, especially that wrote the regulations and wrote the Masonic Manual, Justice Manual. And I also looked at the sentences that were passed down. And I looked at the brothers involved. And I am adamant about getting back to bringing our justice system back under control, our sentencing back under control. You know, you can call me a butthead, that's fine. Uh, you call me a butthead in public, you might get a, you know, hey, let's go to dinner. You call me a butthead in public the third time, and we're probably gonna go, you're probably gonna get a letter or something like that. And it's the context that it happens, you know. So uh the office of the grandmaster, he is the head mason in our state. Even if you don't like the man, you have to respect the office, just like I respect worship masters, secretaries, lodge officers. Um so I did not condone the things that happened, but I felt like this rule was made to kind of catch people, and it was made illegally because it in my mind we hadn't had any legislation on social media, we didn't have any legislation on anything, and it was a ruling and decision. What you all don't understand is that if the ruling and decision was accepted at the end of the Masonic year, it would become it would have been codified and it would become law. Okay. The difference between a directive and a ruling and decision is a directive runs out at the grandmaster's at the end of his tenure or term. A directive does. A ruling and decision, if it's accepted by the craft becomes codified, it becomes law. It goes in the digest as law. So that's why I wrote the ruling and decision. I know it's a long-winded answer. As a ruling and decision, I didn't write it as a directive. I don't want him to ever come back, anybody. Because there's no statute of limitations in masonry. Gotta think about that. I don't ever want them to come back and retry those cases again on those brothers, good brothers. Every brother's a good brother. That's the way I feel about it. And I don't want them to retry the cases again based on five years down the road because somebody else thought they did something wrong. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01And oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I appreciate that. Uh and that was I think our first question on the show that we asked is what is the difference between a ruling decision and a directive? And why would he do these seem very similar?
SPEAKER_02Executive order is normally something to do, like their penal affairs chairman's going to be able to do this or that. A directed directive is you're gonna direct them. I I also strengthened it with the directive stating that you will reverse. I didn't want anything like you, Chris. You're a good man. I didn't want it in your record that you had a letter of reprimand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was a hard one to sit with me at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02Because your record was spotless. You've done the best job you can. So, what about the brothers that were suspended, expelled? Um, and to me, these are good men. We should start it with that concept and precept. And at the end of the day, how can we best serve those good men? And I believe that that was to expunge the records, just wipe it all like it never happened. I know it happened, but to expunge the records, if I look at your record later on, you know your record won't show that, even though hopefully through time, patience and perseverance and a lot of communication, um, that spirit that you had when you first started, and I'm kind of picking on you because this affected.
SPEAKER_01That's why it's great that we're both having this conversation.
SPEAKER_02But that time, patience, and perseverance, you know, you you start doing great things for the fraternity again, you know. And that's important. It's very important.
SPEAKER_00The the one thing during that entire season that I had the biggest hang up on because I attended two, I attended two trials. I testified on both sides uh for prosecution and defense uh on one of them. And then, of course, Chris, I went to your um, you know, whenever you tried to saw my appeal. Yeah, your appeal, sorry. Um and then, of course, I heard it said on the floor of Grand Lodge the first time that I went there, is that there is a difference between Masonic justice and uh civil justice, you know, like our government justice. And that always struck me as weird or an odd thing to say because we are promised three times in the degrees
The Ruling, Due Process, And Ex Post Facto
SPEAKER_00that there's nothing that will conflict with our uh religious, you know, civil moral or religious civil moral, religious duties or privileges, right? So, you know, that I was like, well, that's contradictory to what was just said, right? You can't say that there's nothing that's in conflict, but then whenever it gets to the justice in the trial system, there is a conflict.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, I I think that is not um that's a general concept misunderstanding. So we follow justice. Right. Okay, what is justice? Weighing of the scales and justice. We don't hold a trial like a civil trial.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02We have m we have a Masonic law. Yeah and let's say we don't we don't allow hearsay in a trial, um, but if it's received like, hey, listen, I've got a text message with this guy's name on it. This is what he sent me. If it's received as such, then that could be used against that individual. The issue is is we're not uh in and in the civil justice system, um they allow things to happen in civil justice or vice versa, in Masonic justice, where like the hearsay would be allowed if it's received in a regular deportment. Uh in a civil trial, hearsay is not allowed. He said, she said, you just don't do that. That's a civil court. Okay? We're more closer to the civil court, really. Um but art justice is based on the justice system. It's based on justice. And I feel like there was a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation there. Uh that was another huge conversation that I got into with the Masonic Digest minds. I'm going to call them the geniuses of the digest, was exactly what Matt said is there is no difference in the justice our Constitution talks about. It's just how it affects us as a Mason. So one they kept bringing up 1.10, and I could be messing the numbers up, where um the right to free speech would not be infringed. Okay. But the right to free speech could you could have consequences to the right to free speech. Right. Same thing in civil law. You don't yell fire in a crowded room or in a crowded theater. You could be held accountable for that. Right. Um in our fraternity, it's you have the right to free speech. We're not going to infringe upon that right, but you got the right to have some consequences to the free speech, too. For sure. So you could say what you want to say, but you could be held accountable for what you say.
SPEAKER_01It's such a nuance. That part of the that's the most nuanced part of I think the whole issues that arose is the free speech part, because uh that's really why I was persecuted for things that I said on social media. Sure. Um and, you know, it's tough for me because I'm an advocate of free speech, obviously, but I also agreed to join a fraternity, which I took an obligation not to say certain things. So I understand that when you join any organization, they have a right to exclude you from the organization if you don't follow their rules. And so that might include not saying certain things. Uh, and that's where the nuance comes in. Um personally, and I think most of the people that I saw and knew go through this didn't say anything that was no one called anyone a name, no one said inflammatory. It was uh a very general statement like something's not right, right? Or I don't think things are going well, like very vague kind of statements that were um, you know, that Masonic system of justice was kind of maybe improperly used to say that's ill speak or that's you know what I mean? That's where the nuanced part comes in, is like who interprets that? And when the person being talked about is the one interpreting that and they choose to go a certain path, it can get into a dicey situation, which is where we found ourselves a couple years ago.
SPEAKER_02It's a scary thought or concept, isn't it? Yeah, it is when the guy that's interpreting the regulations is the guy that's involved in that.
SPEAKER_01And picking your jury, making it happen in the dark, giving you your sentence at the end of the day, uh bringing the charges himself, like all of that is highly irregular, I think, in Freemasonry.
SPEAKER_02Well, I got in a discussion, and and it's in the digest, so it's not-I'm just gonna tell you point blank, it's in the digest, it's not irregular or illegal for the grandmaster to do that. The digest was written, you know, it's it's four inches thick, you know, now. Uh what would be nice is if committees would get together or brothers would get together and and try to convince the the overall craft or the consensus that this is what we need. Um I know that a lot of jurisdictions have uh certain methods, you know, for like a recall vote or things like that that can happen through constitution, okay? But it's a constitutional change. But right now there's no constraint for that. But again, when I told you you have the ultimate uh power, why? Why would you use it in that context? So it comes down to they elect the brothers in the craft. Um the only two times of the year that you have a voice as a consensus or a general convention, the only two times are when the guy's elected and when he comes out of office. Okay. And that's really the grade card for what he did through the whole year. Um there isn't anything in the digest that says the Grandmaster, oh, the only thing is he cannot make laws. Okay. And that's kind of what was going on, okay? Um and I don't want to get into who, what, where, when, and how. It was it happened. Uh you saw kind of the perfect storm, so to speak, because it happened, the ultimate power, the ultimate authority, the ultimate um, how it happens, and it was almost the perfect storm. The underlying consensus is why did it happen?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah. Uh but you did the best thing that could happen, other than get that answer, which is make a wrong right.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and this is the first thing you did as grandmaster.
SPEAKER_02Two weeks out the door.
SPEAKER_01My first ruling and decision number one. Right. Two weeks out the door. Clearly, this was on your mind. And I think that speaks volumes about what maybe you were personally struggling with um as it was happening after it happened after all that went down. Absolutely. I'm sure you saw how it was affecting the craft, especially at the Grand Lodge communication. Absolutely. And I I I was I wasn't there myself, unfortunately. It couldn't be at that time. I was I was suspended the uh hours before that happened, so I couldn't attend, but Matt saw it for himself.
SPEAKER_00I think you even spoke. I spoke a couple of times, and um it was I spoke in defense of uh I think I spoke in defense of you and I spoke in defense of Turkey Creek. Um and which which was a whole nother bag of cats. That was a whole nother scenario. But um, you know, it's it's nerve-wracking. I yeah, I've been a master mason at this point for like a year-ish, you know, maybe a year and a half, and I'm standing up in front of 1,500 Masons and you know, going back and forth with the grandmaster on the Grand Lodge floor. I'm like, well, I wasn't trying to make a splash, but apparently I did.
SPEAKER_01But that honestly, that's masonry and that's what it's supposed to be. You weren't going back and forth like calling names, you're going back and forth debating ideas. And that's what basically was supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00It was facts, data, timelines, like it it was that, which again, I mean, that's it the the the whole thing with Turkey Creek. That chapter of my life is now closed. You know, it's it's a closed book for me. Um my understanding is some of the brothers from Turkey Creek are trying to get the lodge back, but you know, I stood up and I I defended that lodge as best as I could. I got about 40% of the brothers to agree with me, and I'm ballparking it right there to restore the charter. It didn't go through. So, okay, that's where it is. And no other brother from Turkey Creek stood up and said anything. So it's like, why is the junior deacon, I was junior deacon at the time, actually no senior deacon at the time, um, you know, who's been in this thing for a year and some change, is standing up, you know, trying to fight for the life of his lodge and nobody else is. And I looked and I saw Turkey Creek guys there, and just nobody stood up and said anything. So it's like, okay, that chapter's closed. I'm over at Lakeland now. I'm enjoying Lakeland, I'm enjoying 21. I'm falling in love with masonry, as people like to talk about.
SPEAKER_04Good.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, so I'm doing degrees and and actually enjoying it now, you know, versus we for a while there, we were just playing just constant political rhetoric, if you will. Uh we were just constantly going back and forth, back and forth, and it was exhausting, you know. So now it's at a point where it's enjoyable again.
SPEAKER_02That's so so uh I wanna I want to address that real quick, Matt, when you talk about you know, I had a year in Masonry and I was defending the lodge and I was bringing up so I I I believe uh at the time some of the comments that I heard was who is this guy? And I'm gonna almost say that in a good context, but it was like uh he's bringing up these ideas and they and then but but he's only been a Mason a year. Why is he speaking on behalf of the brothers who have been here 30 years, 40 years, 50 years? Why aren't they speaking on their behalf? I look at it differently. I look at it as you were the voice of the brothers that were afraid to speak, or that did not have the eloquence, the eloquence, or they were a little embarrassed about being in a room full of a thousand people. So I look at things a little differently. I was always the guy like you haven't done your time. You know, you what are you what are you doing trying to put in for that job you haven't done your time? And I was like, well, I think I've got the experience available for that job. So I believe that your experience, and and and people discount that, and we shouldn't, they discount your life experience. So in your life, you've had to to defend and support, and you're very eloquent, and you've had to do a lot of things. And that's when I'm in there and I listen and I say, Man, that guy's got a good argument. You know, he's got a good thought process. Why are we discounting the fact that he's only been a Mason a year? Maybe he's one of the best litigators in the country. I really didn't know you, but that's what I think about, you know, when I think about things like that. This guy's Perry Mason, you know, I don't know what he's doing. But um so I think our mentality in Masonry is if you haven't gone through the chairs, you haven't done your time, you don't get a chance to speak, and you shouldn't speak. And I think we need to change that mentality a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Well, definitely. Thank you for the kind words. But much like how you said earlier in the show, um, I'm just personally, I'm just an ugly bald guy with a big mouth, uh, and it gets me in more trouble, you know, than often it doesn't. But um, that's actually kind of the fun thing that and back to how you were saying earlier about the craft of we should be able to have discourse and disagree on things. Sure. And it's perfectly fine. And even still, I highly offended um, you know, two right worshipfuls from District 20 whenever I stood up and I said it on all those things. And to their credit, every time I've seen them since then, and after Grand Lodge was over, I sent them an email saying, hey guys, I apologize. You know, this made you guys look bad. I that was not my intention at all. I was just speaking in defense of Turkey Creek. And I was very clear and transparent with them of look, it's just that we disagree on this. It's not that, you know, I don't like you, it's not that I don't respect you, because one of them is the best instructor I've ever met. You know, right? Worstful Dave Winzel. But he highly disagreed with me. And now we're back at a point where whenever I see him at open books, because he's you know one of your committee on work chairman, um, you know, he is as nice as he could possibly be. We have great conversations about our families, our experiences, all this other stuff. He's taught me stuff about the EA degree that I had no idea about, you know, because whenever we put on the degree, I'm like, hey, we did it this way. And he goes, Oh no, it's not that. It's here, you know, and so we're working floor work. So I like Dave. He's a great guy. He's he's phenom he is so good. If you guys don't know Dave Winzel, he's one of the best instructors you'll ever meet in your life. He is so good and just a very good, humble guy.
SPEAKER_02But um I like district deputy for Jeff Foster. So and I like that.
SPEAKER_00The fact that we disagreed, there was tension there. I'm not gonna play like play and act like there wasn't, but at the fact that at the end of the day we got over it, we're still brothers. I can talk to Jack Hampton, uh, right worstful Jack Hampton. Uh we've had a great conversation, right worstful Dave Wenzel, we've had great conversations. So I like the fact that at the end of the day, we are still brothers. We might not agree, and that's okay. Uh, and I've had people say that they disagree with stuff we said here on the show. That's okay. You know, we don't have to agree on everything. I respect you in your opinion. I've got my way of viewing things.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01I believe that wholeheartedly. I say, I'll say this. Um I don't know if I'd still be in Freemasonry if I was Matt. Um I had the experience of falling in love with Masonry from the beginning and then dealing with some dark parts of the fraternity. But Matt's been all dark and now he's falling in love, which I I think is a crazy path to take, and uh speaks to his strength because that Grand Lodge, he was a year Mason. Um, people didn't know him, as you said. He was trying to speak for his lodge, he was trying to speak for me, brothers, that had he felt been wrong. Um, and all of that was okay with him, and I think is part of Freemasonry and good, but there are there was people that Matt respected and looked up to that were Grand Lodge, long time Grand Lodge officers that he reached out his hand to shake and they turned around and wouldn't look the other way. And I don't know if I could have gotten over that as a man. And I see how Matt has, and I'm kind of like, that's why I'll I'll always be friends with Matt no matter what happens. You're you're a special kind of a guy, and uh all the credit to you for sticking with it. And uh I think the fraternity is gonna benefit from your talents for a long time to come.
SPEAKER_02Well, I've always made it a point if somebody doesn't like me, that's the first person I shake hands with in the room.
SPEAKER_01And that I think is Matt's philosophy too, and that's why he wanted to go shake that person's hand. But this long time very decorated person turned his back on him. And imagine I I can only imagine what that felt like.
SPEAKER_00It uh honestly, in in the moment it um it didn't bother me. And the reason why it didn't bother me is I in the moment, as I'm standing there with my my hand extended, um, I'm sitting here thinking, I'm like, this person has never met me, has never had a conversation with me, has never had a meal or shared a drink with me, none of that, and yet doesn't like me. Okay. So they're judging me based off of the things that they've heard.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00So that in my opinion, right? This is just kind of that is a reflection on their character less than it is a reflection on mine. And so I do I hold any ill will or any ill feelings? No, it's just like, okay, now I know where you are and where you stand and how you operate, and that's perfectly fine. Um, I don't I try not to operate that way. I mean, we've had issues over at uh Lakeland 91. Most worstful, you were involved in in one of the issues that we had over there. And sure enough, the the brother that we had an issue with, uh, I went to a July 4th uh celebration and he was there. And I did not expect him to be there because he lives like the next county over. And uh and he I walked through the door, Matt Stone. Okay. So we had a drink, we shared a meal, we hammered it all out, and then at the GMOV, the guy walked up and gave me a hug. You know, so it's like, okay, I'll play nice in the sandbox. You know, it's just, you know, it's more, you know, where what's your character and where you where are you standing? And I'll work around any of it.
SPEAKER_02I always I always tell, and Matt, I believe in that. I believe in being able to, you know, say what's on our heart or on our mind. Uh it might not always come out right. Um, but I'm gonna listen to you, you listen to me. Uh, we can shake hands at the end. Um, we just don't eat at the same table. You know, we might not eat at the same table. We're not best buddies, uh, but we can get along for the best for the benefit of the craft, and that's what we're trying to do. And then um, I always say this you haven't made an enemy. I'm not, I don't have any enemies. You just lost a great friend. So there's a difference in friendship. So I I have no enemies in Freemasonry. I really believe that. Uh I just don't have a lot of great friends. So if they agreed, you know, that's uh the could be you know 100, 200, 300. And most generally, the brothers in our craft are loving and the brotherhood is awesome. Anywhere you go, the food's great, and it's not meatloaf. I mean, it that that's what I love, you know. And um you're always welcome. It's it's so rich to go in, even before Grandmaster, when it when I was going through uh, you know, I had a life-ending heart attack right off the bat when I was uh it was in September I was elected junior warden, and I died for about seven minutes, and they brought me back. So I look at at life a little differently too. Um our time is precious, it's very, very precious, and as we go through, we should be able to forgive, and that's why I hope Chris, through time and talking and working it out, is able to uh his heart's able to heal over this whole affair. And when you look at your record, maybe it'll give you a smile and a and a little good way to go forward, as well as the other guys that were involved in all that. Of course, some of the other guys are, you know, they don't shake my hand either. So I don't worry about that. I I go through and uh I'm gonna do the best I can and I'm gonna shake their hand anyways, you know.
SPEAKER_01The thing that brothers probably don't understand, they're like, how could uh we had a brother who was actually expelled for words he said to someone out of anger, and uh, you know, some of these people were part of this issue with that with that. Um and I think the brothers of the state probably have a lot of questions about their motives. Um and I can tell you, I'm not I can't speak for them, but I can tell you as one of them, I don't think they have ill will in their heart. I don't think they did in the beginning. No, I don't think they got into trouble because they had ill will in their heart. And I don't think that's maybe a misconception a lot of people have out there is these are bad people who did bad things.
SPEAKER_02Ever heard the term lead follower get the hell out of the way? It used to be an old red torch term, okay? My dad did it all the time. Right. And and the thing about it is, is it's why did I want to be the grandmaster? I you know, I look back on it, um, I felt like I could make a difference to help the brothers in the craft. That's the bottom line. I saw things that I did not like, and I've always been a I guess a an activist, a proactivist or whatever. Um if you don't vote, don't gripe. Okay, that's the basic
Free Speech, Consequences, And Power Limits
SPEAKER_02bottom line. So I said, well, I'm gonna give this a try. Everybody says it's difficult. I'm gonna try this, you know, and uh I could we could have other stories over a beer or a smoky old fashioned that I could talk about as to my beliefs associated with that. Um but I was a product of what I feel like was hard work because I I literally in 14 months put 103,000 miles on my vehicle. Okay. I slept in the car sometimes. I went a lot, and everybody says, You're crazy for doing that. I said, no. I want the brothers to know that I'm a human being and I'm accessible. Okay, and that makes a world of difference in my heart that everybody that runs for an office in our fraternity is a good man at heart. I really believe that. They're all good Masons, they're wonderful brothers, pick their minds, talk to them, you know, see what see where they're going. You know, that's what you need to do.
SPEAKER_01You know, I had um a lot of friends who are higher up in the fraternity in the titles, uh, who told me I had won a great victory when I had a written uh what what is it that's in my record? A reprimand. I had a written reprimand, and they said that's that's a big victory for you. And I had to go home and let that sit in my heart. Like he thinks I won a big victory, but I have oh, no one's gonna know about that, but I know about that written record that's on my history. And I worked hard on my Masonic record to make sure it was good things that you know I had done. And I'm sure everyone that was in that situation feels the same way.
SPEAKER_00I'm actually genuinely shocked that my Masonic record hasn't gotten any black marks on it yet. Like truly, we're not done with the interview yet. We're not done with the interview yet, man. Hold on. It's only been three years. Give yourself time. But but honestly, I mean, most worshipful, I mean, to your point of what you said earlier, and you you've kind of danced around this same topic a couple of times, and I gotta I I respect the hell out of it, is that you're fallible, right? Even though you're the grandmaster, sure, you are fallible. And I think that is huge because you've got two very different types of people whenever you get high up in organizations, the one that the ones that can do no wrong, and then the extreme ownership version from Jocko Willink, right? It's like, no, I I'm gonna look at what I did wrong in this scenario and I'm going to take corrective measures to improve it or do better, or whatever the case might be. I've got nothing but respect for that mentality. I mean, if somebody just closes their ears and shuts their eyes and says, No, I'm right, I don't care what the rest of you say, there's no talking to that person. There's no progress or moving forward with that person. But a person that says, I'm willing to be wrong here, great. You know, or great, then let's talk about it, let's get to the truth, let's solve the issue, whatever it is, let's set a goal and let's create a path to get there. I mean, that is a much more admirable way to conduct yourself, whether it be as a man or all the way up to being the grandmaster of Masons in the state of Florida. And I've got to respect that. Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh and again, working with the military and the all the officers and the you know, commanders and the vice commanders and things like that. You you being exposed to multiple egos and then be exposed to the correct way to lead, there were men that I would follow to the death gladly, and there were men that I wouldn't, if they were on fire, you know, they would have a tough time getting a bucket of water from me. So uh so I I got a chance, and and that's where I think uh we we need to take that experience into account is how many people have you been around in leadership positions, how many mentors you've had, and those kind of things. And and some guys haven't had the right mentorship, maybe, or maybe they've had um the wrong mentorship. So I I really believe um that you gotta take all that into account. Especially to be the grandmaster, no doubt.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. Like you said, you are the grandmaster of masons in Florida, that all the Masons, not just the ones that voted put you in that chair. Um So my question now is what stops the next grandmaster from going down the same path that we've seen in happen now in Florida, something that we never saw before, where you said it was kind of a confluence of like all these things at once happening. So basically, how do we avoid the next perfect storm as well as it's a good thing? Right. I mean, does that mean like we a brother needs to suggest legislation to maybe try to curb that? I mean, that's probably the ultimate answer, right? Some legislature.
SPEAKER_02Legislation is always the best way to try to do anything. Right. Uh, when you have a general consensus of the craft that, hey, you know, even our um we talk about our um, and I don't like to talk about politics, but even, you know, what happens, there's always a recourse for some kind of censorship, or there's always a recourse for something. Our recourse is at Grand Lodge. Right. Um, and then after the Grandmaster comes out of office, okay, because you cannot um You can't bring charges on a sitting grandmaster. And you've you're probably well versed in the digest too uh associated with that. Um so I believe that that when you're making a choice for the junior grand warden, you absolutely have to take into account that person's personal life. When you look at their what have they done, are you have to take that all into account. And then did you go up and try to talk to them? Did you go up and shake their hand? One of the hardest questions to answer for anybody is why do you want to be the grandmaster? That's the question that you need to ask them face to face. And they can look you in the eye and they can tell you why they want to be the grandmaster. Do they want the title? Do they want you know the accolades? Do what do they want? And you've got a couple questions as to legacy and things like that. Um and I thought about the hardest question that I had to answer, and I've answered thousands of different questions, uh, about the craft and the digest and things like that. But the hardest question was two things. What do you see your legacy being, and why do why do you want to be the grandmaster, and what do you see your legacy being? And my thing was I I would not want to be the grandmaster if I did not think I could better bring make the craft better, help the craft become better. And how would I do that? Then the legacy is like I'm a very simple man. I'll give you a quick story. I had a boss come in and he says, Um, I looked at your record as a civilian. I was a civilian for 30 years, and there was a little higher level management position, and he says, You don't blow your own horn, you don't toot your own horn enough. Because on my desk in my office was my wife and my grandchildren's pictures and my son's, okay, and nothing else. And he says, You do just don't toot your own horn, and of course, everybody likes to have their brag boards, brag wall, and things, and I it doesn't mean I don't have that. I see, but it it it doesn't mean I don't have that. Um but there's a time and a place for it, if that's correct, if that makes sense. So I had a brand new office, he went away, and I thought about that, and I got mad, and I came home and I got two big totes I had, I put them in my truck, I went to work the next day, and I spent four hours putting all the awards that I had won from the Air Force level, uh, from the chief of staff of the Air Force all the way down to wing level and and squadron level, and it covered almost every inch of the wall all the way around. And I called him and I said, Hey, you got a chance to maybe have a cup of coffee with me? I'd like to talk. And he walked into my office and he looked around and he looked at all these accolades and the things that I had won, all the things on my desk. You didn't even have a chance to see my family's pictures and everything. And and I'm not bragging, I'm just telling you this is point of fact. And he looked at me and he said, point well taken. And he walked out of my office and he never came back to my office again. And then I spent another four hours taking all the plaques back down, patching all the holes, painting the walls, because I believe we are who we are in our heart, regardless of the accolades and the titles and the things that we want. We do things by showing people who we are, not by showing them what's on the wall and what we've done. So I really believe that that's really, really important in Masonry. That's how I am.
SPEAKER_01I think that's clear uh from the way you came out of your uh with your first ruling and decision, where you you know I had a lot of questions about what were you doing while this is going on? What were you thinking? Why didn't Grand Lodge officers help us at the time? Well, you obviously don't know how it works, do you, the grand line? Unfortunately, I know a little more than I want to know. But I know that at the time it took three uh people to say, hey, we have a lack of confidence here, and then it would go to a committee. Like you can remove a sitting grandmaster, there's a process for it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you can.
SPEAKER_01And so I wondered why aren't people doing this? Um, and I think it's hard to know while you're going through it, how bad things actually are getting. Uh, but the way you came out, I you know, I think you said right the right person for the right time, and you're the right person for the right time because you struggled with it clearly, based on the way you came out. You had thought about it, you said for eight months you had talked to a lot of people, you looked at it from a lot of angles. Um and I think your actions speak for that's why I don't have to ask those questions now, because I think your actions have spoken for where your head was at the time. You were probably grappling with it then and didn't, you know. I was trying to figure out what to do. And it's such a when I say unregular, I don't mean irregular in the Masonic sense. I mean irregular in the traditional sense. Like there were a lot of things that were out of our tradition that were happening unprecedented. Maybe they were lawful. They were lawful. Maybe they were technically correct and possible to do, but they were very far removed from norms.
SPEAKER_02Correct. And my thing is uh I'm gonna bring up does the junior warden who really runs a lodge? Everybody says, oh, the secretary, you know?
unknownThe secretary.
SPEAKER_02Come on, you were a secretary. But the worshipful master. He governed, he should govern his lodge. If you read the digest, he is the boss, okay? Does he have to listen to the worst junior warden? You're a junior warden, Matt, you said, right? Yes, sir. Um and probably if you have a good rapport with the officer team, and I say team, that's an important concept. If you have a good rapport with the team, your ideas and influence weigh heavy in the worstful master's decisions. Okay? So you have to have an ultimate team concept. And I will tell you something. Somebody came to me one day and they said, you know, uh, you have a little bit of turmoil in your line, and I said, Okay, um I want to bring this perfectly clear, make this perfectly clear to you. It's not my line. Right. It's the line that the craft chose. Okay. But I said, we're working together, utilizing the best strengths of all of us. So if you see a downfalling from somebody, help them out a little bit. Or let me know and I'll help them out a little bit, and we'll talk about it and we'll work through it. That's a team concept. A team concept is I'm gonna listen to everybody. I'm gonna end up making the decision because it's gonna end up being my responsibility. Yeah. Um But there were times when we couldn't when that couldn't be done. Okay. And uh but the overall concept of the grand line is the grandmaster, he is the ultimate authority uh legally in our state, and I support the office of the grandmaster. Now that's semantics, okay. Uh but it's like a president of the United States. I don't have to support every single decision the president makes, but I respect the hell out of the president at the presidential office. So the same way with our Grand Lodge. I uh I am here. Uh I tell everybody I will answer
Town Halls, Hard Questions, No Retribution
SPEAKER_02any questions. You talked about the town hall meetings. I think in two years of doing tile meetings, we've had maybe 11 questions were asked in two years. Uh the last town hall meeting I had 17 questions asked. The tile meeting. The town hall meeting before that, 21 questions asked. We've been having uh relatively about 20 questions and then a lot of discussion about certain things in the in those town hall meetings. So it's a little bit more relaxed. It's not like, hey, the boss is here, we gotta all act right. You know, so that's the concept. The grand line, we gotta support the grandmaster, you know.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense. That makes sense. Um you're talking about these town hall style meetings. Matt said they're awesome, he's been to them. Whether are there things brothers are saying to you in these meetings that you would never have heard if you did a more official like you said. Absolutely. Yeah, like absolutely. What kinds of things come up at the town hall meetings that that maybe you would never would have heard if you had done it the old way?
SPEAKER_02Well, I ask about I was asked about the ruling and decision.
SPEAKER_01Point blank.
SPEAKER_02That would never come up at a town at a at a tile meeting. Absolutely. Because yeah, because people be would be afraid of the brothers would be afraid of retribution. Yeah. Um, I lay it out on the line right away. There's no retribution for a question asked. No question is off the table. Except for probably my personal family life. That's probably the only thing off the table.
SPEAKER_00And your affinity for meatloaf, apparently.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's off the table.
SPEAKER_01Um I have a feeling that's gonna go really bad for you now that everyone knows you don't like meatloaf. Oh, no, no. They already know that already. They already everybody knows that already.
SPEAKER_02All right, it's a big deal. Um but I'm serious in that when we can't discuss something that's on your mind um in a matter-of-fact and common sense type of way, we're letting a mountain grow out of a molehill. And when we do that, it's harder to try to get it broke down by one man, let alone a whole team. So that's kind of the concept.
SPEAKER_01Well, we are bumping up on your limit of time, but I I think we Matt and I talked and we do have uh one question that we want to ask you before we go.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um somewhere out there, there's a brother listening who's still angry, who's still hurt, and he's not sure he belongs in Lodge anymore. What would you say? What would you want him to hear from his grandmaster? Because he's probably not going to go to your town hall meetings.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, that's already I've already seen that. Okay. I've received personal phone calls. Um I firmly believe that we make our own choice to heal or not to heal. Okay? We make our own choice in that. And there is no amount of apology that I could give somebody if they feel that their heart was hurt over just like you, Chris, you uh what happens to the record. All I can do is make it um you know, fix the grammatical error, so to speak. Can't fix a man's heart. Only a man can do that. I feel like when that person has had time I and I do believe this statement. Time, patience, and perseverance. All things may be accomplished. When he sees the um when he sees it is hard to heal and understands that the choice to still grieve over it is his own. Um then I feel like he'll step forward and he'll start doing good things again. Don't go away. There's other brothers that really love and respect you. Uh the brotherhood is still alive and well. Uh the fellowship is outstanding in the state. It's outstanding all over. Oh my gosh. Did you guys go to Tri-State? Matt, did you go to Tri-State? Oh my goodness. Tri-State or the the Florida-Georgia get together. Um, but traveling is important and what they've done is they've isolated in their grief. There's no amount of apology I can give them that'll bring them out of that grief. Um so I feel like with time, patience, and perseverance they'll heal. Um and I and I believe that. I do firmly believe that. But keep persevering, you know.
SPEAKER_00Uh I I am quite literally sitting here thinking about one specific guy that I am going to send this interview to, and especially this this segment right here, because he he was affected in a negative light. He was worshiful master and was pulled from being worshiful master and then had charges filed against him, and he is he's still sore about that. And it's I I know that it happened. I mean, you got your past master's degree, you know, but his year as a worshipful master, I think was less than three months. Uh it was that fast. So um hearing you say that, uh, I'm I'm definitely going to be sending this to him and to a couple of other brothers as well of hey guys, fight the craft is here if you want it, and there's no hard feelings on our end. And just see where it goes.
SPEAKER_01Like that one issue, I think he's what his words were apply to any issue.
SPEAKER_00They apply across the board. I mean, I'm I'm narrowing it down to one guy, but at the end of the day, yeah, that could be applied uh across the board to all masons. And it doesn't have to be just something that happened two or three years ago. No, this could have been something that happened 10 years ago. This could be something that happened 15 years ago. The craft is going to be here if you want it, and the friendship and the camaraderie and the brotherly love, it's all going to be there if you want it. But like most worshipful said, it's up to you as a man on if you want to heal or not.
SPEAKER_02Right. And and and if you want to affect change, do it in a positive way. Nobody likes negativity. Yeah. You know, um, you can only gripe so much before people turn it off, you know, and I don't want to hear it again. Really, really, that's true. Yeah. Oh, it's 10%. We tell you, you know, healing is a process. We can only gripe so much, you know.
SPEAKER_01We have uh we both own companies, Matt and I, and I know that we think the same way. And I tell my staff if you come to me with a problem and you don't have two solutions, you're just bitching. Like I want to know that you thought about it, and I want you to come with two recommendations for what I can do about that. And I'll listen to all your problems if you're willing to do that. But otherwise, I don't want you to just come and bitch to me.
SPEAKER_02You know, I that's what I am.
SPEAKER_00It's funny, I actually have the same rule with my wife. Where hold on, let me explain. Man, you haven't been married long enough. You don't get a second. Here's the thing. I've been married 10 years, right? And she's in the other room. I I can bring her in here and have her tell you, right? But whenever she starts to- It's a good run. Yeah, exactly. It was good while it lasted. But either way, I always tell her I'm like whenever she starts to vent about something or a problem, I'll typically hold up my hand. I'm like, hold on, do you want a solution or do you just want a bitch? And then like she'll be like, I want a solution. Okay, then I'll help you solve it. Do you just want a bitch? Yep. Okay, I'll pop open a drink. Tell me all about it. What you got? Girls, fill a tea.
SPEAKER_02It's really good, and there'd be a hole right through the middle of it.
SPEAKER_00But but it's great because typically, as guys, we're problem solvers. We're two initial players. That's what we are, right? But sometimes my wife just wants to talk to me about her day and she wants to vent about her day. And I don't need to be in my mental headspace where it's like, I'll solve the problem. No, she needs to get this off her chest, right? And those are two very different things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Or my wife, she'll come up to me and she'll go, you know, um, like the trash is getting a little bit full, so I'll stop what I'm doing and I'll go do the trash, you know, or something like that. And then she she doesn't understand. She'll say, Well, I didn't mean for you to go do the trash. And I said, No, no, no. That was on your mind at the time. And that's one less thing that I have to worry about in an hour. You know, you'll remind me again in an hour. You know, the trash is needs to be going out, you know. So no, I've been married 48 years, Matt. And I'm telling you, you'll learn after about the 15th year, there's no putting your hand up and stopping anything.
SPEAKER_00His wife's still in the honeymoon phase the first 10 years. Yeah. Well, I mean, couple that with uh, you know, having a rambunctious five-year-old girl. Uh yeah. Oh my gosh. And she has my sense of humor, so I've had to apologize to my wife for the next like 18 years. I'm like, I'm so sorry because it's coming. Like you don't know it's coming yet, but once she gets sentient, it's gonna be bad. Once she gets sentient, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, we we have definitely overextended our stay with most worshipful. This is a historic uh podcast. I don't think uh any sitting grandmaster has sat down and talked to the brothers so directly in the way that you have. So my hats are off to you for so many reasons. Um, you know, personally, I was affected by what happened a couple years ago. Um, and your actions have resolved any lingering issues I had with the fraternity, um, or my uh anything I had been holding on to personally, I think. Um and I'm sure that's true for everybody. So I commend you. I believe that the I'm not uh I don't go to church every Sunday, but I believe the Lord
Healing, Surveys, And Final Charge
SPEAKER_01puts people in certain places at certain times uh because they're the right person at the right time for the right issue. Um and that's definitely you. You've done some uh, you know, other grandmasters may not be willing to take up so much of their time trying to fix somebody else's problems. Um, but you did, you have. Um, and I'm sure you have a lot more on your plate you wanted to be doing with your year than this stuff. Like you said, you sit there and you plan out your year. I'm sure you had a full year planned, and this wasn't part of your plan when you sat down and thought about what am I gonna do when I'm Grandmaster? But here you are, and you're the man right now, and you're doing it. So my hats are off to you.
SPEAKER_02It's not over yet. You remember what I told you about the rulings and decisions being voted on at Grand Lodge. We should always make sure we know what those are about. We should always make sure we know what direction we're going in with our committee reports or foreign relations and those kind of things and inquire about them. And we should all make sure that that's the way we want to go because the ruling and decision is not codified until it's voted on at Grand Lodge. I can only make the ruling and decision for the year, and it's not codified till Grand Lodge. So that brings up a whole lot of other questions.
SPEAKER_01Well, Matt, is there anything that you wanted to say to the to the Grand Master of Masons of Florida or the brothers before we let him off the hook?
SPEAKER_00No, uh if it uh if anything, most worstful, um, you know, I started my face started to get restored in most worstful Tally's year. He was a very nice guy. Um, you know, I definitely appreciate the kind words and mentorship from both of you here in this here in this show that we did and the short two hours that we had. Um I applaud what you're doing. Um, I would love to see more of it. If I can help in any way, shape, or form, just let me know. Um, you know, we've got all of our DDGM committee visits out of the way, so I've got a little bit more time freed up now, which is going to be great. Um, but no, I again I I applaud you guys. I I really do. And I I really hope to see this trend of the grandmaster being a human, you know, and that's the best way that I can say it. You know, a person that is fallible, a person that, you know, is going to make decisions, that is understanding that they're not going to please 100% of the people all the time, but they still have those people in mind, even the ones that did not vote for them. Um I've gotten nothing for respect, uh, nothing but respect for that mindset. Um, so definitely well done. Um, I appreciate you. Thank you. And uh that's really all I got as far as everything else is concerned to the rest of the brothers. As always, may peace and brotherly love prevail. So uh Chris, you got anything for the brothers? And then we'll let most worship have the last word.
SPEAKER_01Uh we well, you know, we Matt and I knew we were gonna interview the most worshiful grandmaster, and so we really tried to find your voice. We're not asking our questions, we're trying to ask questions for you. Um, and as always, you can always email us or uh message us on any of our platforms, and we'll continue to do that for you. Talk about topics you want to talk about. Um uh and to the grandmaster again, I can't I want to personally thank you for the sacrifices you've made of what you wanted to do for doing the right thing. Because I I'm well aware uh this isn't what you wanted to be doing. Uh, but here we are and you're doing it, and thank you so much from me and behalf of the other brothers that were affected. There's nothing that could have restored our faith better than a grandmaster saying what you said and doing what you're doing. There's nothing left to hold on to now, I think. Um it's time to move forward fully and a hundred percent. Um, and I hope that you uh I know that this you're an example to future grandmasters. I'm sure the other people in the grand line are watching you and learning. Um, and I know the people that are running for Grand Line are watching you and learning. So you you know, just know that your sacrifice is not in vain. Everyone sees it, and we are very grateful for such a brave grandmaster who's has so much uh love for the fraternity that he was willing to sacrifice some of his legacy for for the future. So I'm a bushy guy. I'm I'm very personally affected by this. I kind of get emotional talking to you about this because I can't express to you how much it affected me and my life with my wife and you know my my business. Uh it went far beyond Freemasonry for me personally, uh, and how it affected me. So I hope you understand the depth of the healing that you're bringing to people in the fraternity.
SPEAKER_00And and definitely, uh by all means, and I'm speaking for both Chris and I, Chris, if I'm speaking out of turn, just say so. Um, but anytime you want to come on this show and utilize this show as a tool to reach the brothers, just say the word. I mean, here we are in the middle of the day, in the middle of the work week, you know, sitting here doing this. So um anytime you want to want to come back and you want to tell the brother something, fireside chats, you know, just get something off your chest, just give us the word and we'll we're happy to help.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate that. Uh one of the things about On the Level, like I told Chris earlier, I was one of the fans of On the Level uh podcasts when they first came out. I believe in that communication and the topics covered were absolutely great. And it's great to let somebody speak and let their hair down, so to speak, and really talk about uh what's on their heart. No pun intended, Matt. I'm getting a little thin on top. I used to have a lot, a lot of hair. Um, but I do believe that we have a wonderful grand line right now. We're we're trying to utilize the best things we can do. I'm letting some of the guys, and I say letting because you know they say, well, this is your year. No, it's our year. It's the crafts year. We need to perform for them the way they expect us to. So start your projects now, start getting involved, start getting the brothers going. So by the time you're grandmaster in four years, uh, then you'll have all this ready to go and you're ready to go in the long run. Uh I wasn't afforded that opportunity. Uh what I would like the brothers to do is remember there's a survey that I would love them to go to the survey page, take the survey, it helps us all understand more. It's anonymous, it and it lets us understand more what's on their minds and designing our uh educational programs and whatnot. I would also like the brothers to know that the town hall meetings are not frivolous. I understand that their time is precious. My time is precious, every minute is precious. Uh, but their questions, I want them to know that their questions, there will be no retribution on their questions. If they want to know about a hard, you know, I had a guy asking about uh the budgets the other day, had somebody asking a guy, but uh a brother asking about the budgets, a brother asked about the ruling, uh, a brother ask about uh how the grand line operates. We're getting asked some pretty in-depth questions, and they're getting better and better. I would encourage them to respect every brother that we have in the fraternity, treat them as a brother, not like a brother that you had when you were growing up where you fought all the time. Treat them as a brother. Uh respectfully address them, respectfully do the things. If you show somebody respect, then they automatically will respect you in return. They really will. And when they don't, you just don't go to them anymore. So to me, let's let get let's get back to acting like when men do, Masons. We're impactive in our communities, in our fraternity, in our lodges. Let's let's start doing the right thing, you know? Again. And I thank you guys. I have put it out there for a year that I would do a podcast, and you were the first guys that approached me. Really? Yes.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, you're probably gonna get inundated because uh your actions are going far beyond the borders of the state. Oh, yeah. I think what was happening was getting known throughout our country and probably beyond. Obviously, you've restored relations with people that were taken. Um, so this goes beyond our country, even your actions. Uh we're not finished yet.
SPEAKER_02We're we're I love that's music to my ears.
SPEAKER_01We're not finished yet. Keep going. Got a lot of work to do. So I think you're gonna rally a lot of people that would do anything to help you keep going where you're going uh in this mission. Making Freemasonry great again in Florida and outside the state. Man, they should make a slogan about that.
SPEAKER_00That's what they should do.
SPEAKER_01Make Masonry Great M F G A. It's just not roll off the tongue, does it? Mufka.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I regret saying that now. Uh well, I don't I think the Grandmaster should be the last one to speak. You know, obviously we do that in Lodge. I'd love to do that here. Uh you you you ended with a good message there. Is there anything else you would like to say to the brothers that we haven't covered?
SPEAKER_02Uh God family fraternity. Remember that. I just thank God every day that I'm able to serve and do the things that I need to do to bring this forward. That's it.
SPEAKER_00So well, there you go. So, ladies and gentlemen, boys, girls, children of all ages, from On the Level Podcast, Worship Chris Burns, myself, and most worshipful Haskell R. Vest, thank you for watching this episode. Uh, if you got any questions, send them in to us. We'll see if we can uh get most worshipful back on at a future date. Uh but until then, on the level podcast is out.
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