On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Masonic Riders at a Crossroads - The Widows Sons in Florida
Journey into the leather-clad world of Masonic motorcycle culture as attorney and rider Chris Wadsworth shares the fascinating tale of the Widow's Sons' evolution in Florida. As president of the newly recognized Widow's Sons Masonic Riding Association, Wadsworth pulls back the curtain on a brotherhood at a crossroads, revealing how seemingly simple things like patches and paperwork can spark profound questions about Masonic identity.
The story begins in 1998 with a handful of brothers in an Illinois diner dreaming of combining their passion for motorcycles with their devotion to Freemasonry. From these humble origins sprouted an organization now spanning 92 countries and raising substantial sums for charity. But the path hasn't been without its bumps and detours, particularly in Florida where disagreements about Grand Lodge recognition and symbolic imagery led to a significant split within the brotherhood.
Wadsworth candidly discusses the tension between motorcycle culture's independent spirit and Masonic obligations, offering rare insight into how these seemingly contradictory values can coexist. Throughout the conversation, the true purpose of the organization shines through – raising money for worthy causes, supporting brothers in need, and creating visible ambassadors for Freemasonry in communities across the state.
What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of brotherhood beyond patches and politics. As Wadsworth puts it: "It's convenient to be a brother when it's easy. When you're a brother when it's inconvenient, that's when you know you have a true brother." Whether you ride or not, this episode offers valuable lessons about navigating change while honoring tradition in any Masonic organization.
you've reached the internet's home for all things masonry. Join on the level podcast as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft and try to unlock the mysteries, dispel the fallacies and utilize the teachings of freemasonry to unlock the greatness within each of us.
Speaker 2:I have you. Now let's go. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, boys, girls, children of all ages, welcome back to On the Level Podcast. My name is Matt Stone. We are joined by Brother Chris Burns here today. I'm going to let him introduce our guest, but while I have you, if you would please take a second like comment, subscribe all that kind of fun stuff, share the show, let everybody know where we are so that way this podcast can be used as a tool here in the state of Florida to promote peace and harmony. So, brother Chris Burns, who do we have on the show today?
Speaker 1:What's up, hey, Matt. Good to see you man Been your nice button down today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm actually trying to snazz it up a little bit there bud.
Speaker 1:I like that. Okay, so today we have a special guest, very special guest, chris Wadsworth and brother. I'm not sure what your official title is. What do we call you, president? What's your official title? El Jefe? You just call me Chris. I've gotten in trouble for not saying titles, so if you can tell me what title we call you, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:You may call me Chris or Captain my Captain. There you go. Oh, captain my Captain, call you. I'd really appreciate it, you may call me chris, or captain, my captain.
Speaker 1:There you go, captain my captain, captain, my captain chris wadsworth. So you are now the president of the newly recognized by the grand lodge of florida widow's sons. Is that correct?
Speaker 3:that is correct wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you with us. Thank you for coming on, uh. So let's start out with like you, uh, a lot of brothers might not know who you are in the state of florida. I know you're in the southeast, there in like the miami ish area, so I'm sure everybody knows you down there, sure? So for the other brothers yeah, who's chris?
Speaker 3:yeah, no, I'm um. I'm part of hibiscus, lodge number 27, 275. I'm a Shriner, scottish Rite, york Rite. You know, run down the list. Oh, you pay all the dues.
Speaker 3:I pay all the dues. I'm an attorney down here. I have a law firm in Miami with offices in Palm Beach, broward County, punta Gorda, jacksonville and New York County, punta Gorda, jacksonville and New York. We have about 30 lawyers. We me I have 30 lawyers and about 50 support staff. We've been practicing law for 29 and a half years, going on 30. I'm a trial lawyer, so that's my job is trying cases. So I try between 10 to 15 cases a year. The stuff you see on TV with the juries and all that kind of stuff. It's all civil litigation. But we do everything in civil litigation, from property to defending against Morgan Morgan. I'm sure everyone knows what Morgan Morgan is right. Oh, yeah, yeah. So that's what.
Speaker 2:I do All the people that Pillsbury Doughboy, if he could stay away from the medical marijuana thing, that would be just capital. I would be totally okay with that.
Speaker 3:He's a billionaire, just so you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah, I've heard.
Speaker 1:You're not a billionaire yet.
Speaker 2:No, the funny thing is is whenever he was running for some sort of office or something like that and he had to drive through Polk County and he was like I dare Grady to pull me over and Grady was like let's do this, let's go. Then he stopped at a bar over in North Lakeland and just really showed his rear end. It was a place called Boots and Buckles. It was the funniest thing. But I do have to ask if you're an attorney and you're an actual trial attorney, how many times in court have you uttered the phrase I want the truth and someone screams back you can't handle it. It's like for the free bird of attorneys in my book.
Speaker 3:So the funny thing is I actually stay stuff like that in floor dyers. So, floor dyers, when you take a jury before I say, how many people come in here and think like there's going to be a Perry Mason moment, right, where someone stands up and says, I get it or you can't handle the truth, and I go, it's not going to happen, it's not going to be like that. It's going to be boring. Gonna be a lot more boring than that. Yeah, yeah, stay awake, buddy. Okay, just don't fall asleep. You'll be waiting. Exactly. It's not gonna be like that, I promise you. But anyway, um, so I, um, I joined the widow sons six years ago. That was a masonic writing association at the time and I am president of the eastward writers chapter and have been since 2020. And then this new chapter of the Widow Sons. That I think why I'm on this podcast now. That's it Well.
Speaker 3:I can give you a history of the Widow Sons if you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a good place to start, because our brother, matt Stone here, is somewhat new to the fraternity and I'm sure he and others could use a little background on who the Widow Sons are. Now I know, before we get into that, I'll say I'm not a Widow Son, I've never been one. I don't ride motorcycles. Sure, when I became a Master Mason I didn't know anything about masonry, right. So I went through my Entered Apprentice and Fellow Craft degree pretty normal anything about masonry, right. So I went through my entered apprentice and fellow craft degree pretty normal. Uh.
Speaker 1:But the the morning of my master mason degree I show up to the lodge and there's like a hundred motorcycles outside and I'm like whoa, I'm double checking, am I in the right place? And I walk in and it's all gray beards with rubber bands and tattoos and leather and I'm like in my pants. To be honest with you, I'm definitely in the wrong place. And everybody was so welcoming, so kind. Those guys did the majority of the work in the second half of the degree, which was really impressive. My first introduction to the widow's son was just shock and awe. I was totally impressed with how scary you were on the outside and how awesome and kind everybody was on the inside Right.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's kind of the thing. We're like the pole bearers for masonry, you know what I mean. In other words, we're very visible, especially if we're having a rally or we're all riding or whatever. Very visible and the idea is to shine a good light on masonry. And you know, motorcycles and black vests always get the media's attention, and I'll get. I'll get into that in a minute, but I can give you the.
Speaker 3:The brief history of the widow sons is back in 1998 in illinois, a little diner, a guy named car Carl Davenport was with probably four or five and I'm sure someone will correct me and tell me, no, it was six, I don't, it was four or five guys, they all ride motorcycles and they were Masons. And Carl said hey, man, wouldn't it be great if we formed a Masonic riding association? Right? So remember, up in Illinois, chicago area, that's where the outlaws were born, that's the one percenters, the motorcycle club, the bad guys like sons of anarchy stuff, um, there's a lot of motorcycle clubs up there. So, uh, you know I can't climb into carl's head and I've never spoken to carl, but my thought was, hey, let's set up a good guy, you know motorcycle riding association that are masonic. So they decided to call themselves the widow sons after hiram Abiff. So we're all master masons, we're all widow sons because of Hiram Abiff people might not know who outside of Freemasonry.
Speaker 1:I know not many people have heard the name Hiram Abiff. If you're not a mason and you're listening, hiram Abiff is kind of like the central character of our core degrees in Freemasonry he's known as the builder. He's known to be a widow son Haramvith is kind of like the central character of our core degrees in Freemasonry. He's known as the Builder. He's known to be a Widow's Son who I think hails from Naphtaliya, a tribe, and is known as a Builder, and he was a Tyrian person who was sent to help King Solomon build Solomon's Temple. So that's who you guys have chosen as your name, correct the Widow Sons.
Speaker 3:And in the back of every vest or most vests you'll see Hiram a bit. You'll see a little patch at the bottom. I can go get my vest and show you. It says Hiram a bit.
Speaker 2:You know, I should have worn my who is James Mason shirt Because it has the Widow Son logo on the back of it and it was a widow's son who made those shirts. That was joe. That was joe. Joe shaw yeah.
Speaker 3:So I love that guy so, with that aside, carl davenport formed a rudimentary web page. Um, I really never did much with it. They rode together, but they didn't get vests or any of that other stuff right. So then, in 1999, a guy named armando nunez, affectionately called army, had the same idea. You know, it's one of those things where you put something out in the universe and everybody has the same idea around the same time yeah armando lived in the tampa area at the time in 1999 and he did a web search and he found carl davenport's group.
Speaker 3:So then he talks to carl and calls him up or whatever and uh, turns out that carl never did a bag patch or vest or things like that. So armando decided he was going to do that. So he did, and that's when he came up with the elvira patch. And yes, I'm going to text you where they got it from, if you're okay with that and you can maybe.
Speaker 1:That was part of, I think, the problem that the Grandmaster had with the Widow Sons. He felt that this patch was a little too provocative.
Speaker 2:Shocker. It's Elvira. I don't even know what the patch is and I can already tell you it's Elvira.
Speaker 3:It's probably supposed to be a widow who is grieving the loss of her husband, who is a mason, and trying to figure out, uh, how she's going to provide for herself and her family. Okay, so that was the idea. Armando brings all the patches up to Chicago to hand them over to Carl Davenport, and there you go, the Widow Sons are born right, except this was your previous patch right.
Speaker 3:Correct and I sent you the actual that bad via text. I sent you the actual where they got it from Okay. Where they got it from okay, because it's not that bad it's a japanese anime and she's actually in real life holding that's it, holding a samurai behind her head yeah and so they they just kind of, you know, dumped it out.
Speaker 1:So this was the image that apparently the the late, most worshipful coward felt was too much, right he didn't like it, right, yes, anyway.
Speaker 3:So apparently the carl davenport group up in illinois didn't really like the patch very much either, and you know, I don't know how long it took. But they said look at, we're not going to use this patch, we're going to go to the pyramided wings and you know the working tools and all this other stuff. And army said, no, well, we're going to keep the, the widow. So there was a loose agree, a loose agreement where the southern states would have the widow and the northern states would have the pyramid of wings, fast forward I didn't know that fast forward to today, and florida is the only state with a widow.
Speaker 3:There were a couple of other states here and there that had them, and then they phased them out and they all went to the Pyramid Wing.
Speaker 1:Give me an idea. Florida was the last holdout. We were the last one using that. That's it, oh wow.
Speaker 3:The Widow Sons are in 92 countries. Wow, 92 countries. They all use the Pyramid Wing. I want to say 40 states, 92 countries.
Speaker 1:It's a huge organization now so they're all using like this is your new patch that we were showing.
Speaker 3:Ours is ours is a little variation, so where we have the hourglass, the sprig and the column, they have the working tools. That's the only difference.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, so you just chose different symbols here, right? Was there a reason? Did you guys have any meaning behind?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah. So the guys that are much smarter in the esoteric um masonry could probably tell you the reason for those three things better than I could. I mean, I can tell you what the working people are for.
Speaker 1:I'm very familiar with these symbols and what they're in every lodge, right they?
Speaker 3:They're in every lodge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a symbol of human life. So life and death, right. This is a symbol of the broken, this is a broken column. So this is symbolizing the brokenness of man and the loss of life.
Speaker 3:And the sprigification is Is obviously eternal. Yeah, so there you go, sprigification is obviously eternal yeah. So there you go. They felt that the working tools we already have it meet on the level part upon the square, which is really the working tools. So that was the patch set we went with and if you actually count the feathers on the wings, the one on the left has 23 feathers. The one on the right has 19 feathers. 2319 is the w and s and widow sons, when you count in the alphabet now we're doing masonry.
Speaker 3:There you go, so you fast forward to today and you have that many widow sons. That was kind of the beginning of the Wittesons. Back then Florida always claimed that we are the originals because even though Carl Davenport had the idea in 98, he didn't do much with it. Armie Nunez was the one who really kicked it off in 1999.
Speaker 1:In any event, it's a fairly new organization in 1999. Fairly Freemasonry being over 300 years old. Yeah. So you guys uh got into some stuff last year.
Speaker 3:I mean you went normal, things were going on like what had happened was the, the widows son never submitted paperwork to the grand lodge to become recognized and approved. And it's in the digest that if you base your membership on being a master Mason and I'll you know, I'll backtrack a little bit so when Army Nunez formed this organization, you had to do two things you had to be a master Mason and you had to own a motorcycle. Okay, those are the only two requirements If you wanted to be a what a son master Mason, own a motorcycle and you can ride with us, right. So the widow sons never submitted their paperwork to the grand lodge to be acknowledged and approved. Never, not 1999 so does that?
Speaker 1:I mean running what? What does that really mean? That just means you aren't recognized by the grand lodge. I mean, you can still operate right without being recognized by the grand lot, could, can't you?
Speaker 3:incorrect. So if you read the right, if you read the digest and you are premising your membership on being a master mason, that means you have to be a master mason to be in the group and you're not recognized by the Grand Lodge, you cannot operate. They can pull your dues card. I mean you can operate, but you're not going to be a master mason anymore. That's in the digest. The reason behind that is you know the Grand Lodge. If you you know they're masters and wardens shriners, you run through it right. They're all under the Grand Lodge.
Speaker 1:Right the Scottish Rite, the York Rite, High 12, every single one of them.
Speaker 3:So the Wittesons had kind of been operating outside the radar, but we would still work with the Grand Lodge hand in hand.
Speaker 3:We would present them honorary vests every year to the Grandmaster, george Eladra was the only one who refused to take a vest, back in like 2012, you know, 2013, all those guys took them and obviously last year it wasn't done with uh, most worshipful grandmaster don cowart rest his soul. Um, most worshipful grandmaster don cowart decided hey look, it got like 73 organizations that are operating, that you got to be a master mason, but they haven't submitted their paperwork to us. So he issued decision number two, which I'm sure you're familiar with, and it really just cited the doctor familiar with it.
Speaker 1:This was the. Uh. I got a call from the grandmaster on that one because I I published that on our um district group page, which I do for every edict that I've ever seen come out for any grandmaster. But that one was so controversial that there were people from out of state really laying into uh the the wisdom behind that decision. And so I got a call from the grandmaster that said take it down, I don't want it there, right?
Speaker 3:so I took it down so that was rough technically he's accurate and correct, right according to the digest, he didn't say anything that was incorrect or not. So this was a year ago, which it was, I think, mostly directed to the Widow Sons, because we were probably the largest organization that had not submitted our paperwork.
Speaker 1:Weren't you even mentioned? Weren't the Widow Sons specifically called out?
Speaker 3:I don't think so. Well, I don't recall, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:but well, I don't, I don't recall, I don't think so, but it's very possible oh, maybe I'm thinking of the, because there was another one that involved what you can wear to watch, and he specifically said you can't wear the patches of the widow's son right the vest, or the widow's son right?
Speaker 3:so because we used to be able to wear a long sleeve shirt with a tie in our vest and the idea behind that was to kind of you know other masons to be like what are you got? What is that? You would say yeah oh yeah they go, I ride motorcycles. You'd be like great, come on over. You know that's the idea, but anyway, it's a ton of money.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know the two chapters I that were near me. They were always out fundraising all the lodges.
Speaker 3:They were always raising more money than we were for charities I can tell you that at the eastwood riders we raised tens to twenty to thirty thousand dollars. I mean a lot of money. Uh, last year we handed out turkeys and boxes of food to everyone at thanksgiving. Uh, I mean, you know, we support the young marines. We sent them to Hawaii on a trip. You know what I mean? Like, we, we do a lot. That's masonry, right there. So right.
Speaker 3:So the idea when they first formed the Widow Sons was hey, fellowship and a good time. But when you get a bunch of Masons together, fellowship and good time means raising money for charity. Cause that's how we have a good time, right, we go and we check over for 10 grand and then we go to the bar and have a beer and go. Man, that was great. So we became, I think, a fairly large organization that raises a lot of money for charities year. We pay for it. So, for the young kids I'm all about kids, you know that's our future.
Speaker 3:Last year when, when that edict came down, being a lawyer that I am, I prepared all of the bylaws that needed to be submitted to the grand lodge to get recognized and approved and we had a meeting. Um, and you can read it on the transparency page. You read it in my statement. We had a meeting, but not all the presidents were present at the meeting, right? So the way the widow sons works, or used to work, was you had council of presidents, you had 20 chapters, 20 presidents and the presidents would vote on stuff, right, kind of like a republic and it was just a majority is all that was needed to pass things uh, two two-thirds so okay so we go to this meeting but not all the presidents are there.
Speaker 3:Only some of them are there, and my intent, along with a couple of the other guys, was to say, hey, this is what we need to do. We need to submit this. I'm pretty confident, you know, I've been a lawyer a long time. I'm going to be able to work through the red tape. I'm you know, I'm gonna be able to call them out and get it done yeah so instead, what happened?
Speaker 3:the meeting went sideways and people were like, wow, I don't. No, I'm from cuba and we had a dictator before. We don't want a dictator now. And I try to say, look, if you're a mason, the most worshipable grandmaster is a dictator and he'll admit he is. He may be a benevolent one, he may be a good one, but what he says goes and it's in our obligation. And I won't recite our obligation, but I think we all know right. Do you sound in someone's anedict, right? So if you're a Mason, you've already got to be under the Grand Lodge, whether it's be a widow, son or not. So why not just play within the rules? No, I'm not. He's not telling me what to do and that's not the way this works. We're free Mason.
Speaker 1:So, that was a motion motion, so we're running. It sounds like.
Speaker 3:So what happened was they decided all right, we're just going to sidestep it. In our own internal bylaws, we're going to remove the requirement that you're a master mason. We're going to make our rule.
Speaker 1:Part of his edict was he gave you a certain amount of time to admit, or you were not going to be a mason anymore. Right? That was what really angered people, I think right or or submit your paperwork, or submit the paperwork right and as soon as you submit your paperwork.
Speaker 3:To be honest with you, under the grand lodge rules, as soon as you submit your paperwork, you're safe. Even if he doesn't approve it, he kicks it back. And you kick it back during that you're in the process, right, like exactly, you're in the process and therefore you're safe, right, you're allowed to operate. And so they decided they wanted to remove everything in our bylaws that required you to be a mason, make our wives associate. And I did that for them, right, I'm a lawyer. Hey, can you do that. Sure, you know whatever.
Speaker 3:So that was like what the two-thirds majority wanted two-thirds majority at that meeting, which did not include all of the presidents right, it was okay gotcha not sure it was two-thirds globally.
Speaker 3:All of them right, right. So went through, cleaned up the bylaws. You don't have to be a mason anymore. They created a board. It's like on a transparency page says they created a board that's going to guard the west gate, which means you're not going to be a widow son if you're not a master mason. And this is the way it was going to roll. Don cowart wrote. I'm not going to say god rest his soul every time, but you know, don Cowart wrote a letter and asked what we had done to come in compliance with decision number two.
Speaker 3:And I helped the president pen a letter. Helped means I wrote it and he signed it. It's like any lawyer, right, like hey, can you help me do this? Yeah, you're right. And then maybe you change the comma or one word and basically just said look, we're no longer a Masonic Riding Association, we're no different than you know, the American Legion or the VFW or you know the Lions Club. So you know that's what we did. So he kind of just left us alone. I think he was frustrated, probably, and I always thought really that this was going to be a temporary move until Don moved on right. So the Most Worshipful Grandmaster is only in power for one year up. He's very reasonable. I know him, um, you know he. He comes to my lodge quite often. Uh, the guy behind him, and I'll screw up all the names of these guys right up front.
Speaker 1:It's no distance right is behind him, and then you got uh rick winley is a member of the low 12.
Speaker 3:So you know, talk about you got a friendly line coming up that can really work with you and help you and help you get cemented in with the grand lodge and not have to worry anymore, right, because that's always the big concern. Well, what you know, there there was like all right, so you get us approved. What happens if the next guy that comes in wants to kick us out? I go, well, that's always the fear, right? I mean, it happened in kansas. They kicked out the scottish. I mean, I'm sorry, the Shriners. They kicked out the Shriners because the Shriners started letting non-Masons become Shriners. So the Grand Lodge of Kansas went you're out. And when I spoke to Most Worshipful Grandmaster Talley he told me that he goes. I don't understand he goes. Obviously we have that power, but we only do that if you're doing something un-Masonic or not acting like a good Mason or you know you break the rules in some manner.
Speaker 1:And that you know that happened. I know here and there things would happen, things would get posted online that maybe they didn't like that happened while there was like a Masonic logo or Widow's Sons logo in the shot. A few little things like that happened, but they didn't seem to be. That wasn't the norm. It seemed like there were just a couple of problems here and there.
Speaker 3:I can promise you the things that got posted that upset people wouldn't upset you. Normally there's three Widow's Sons at a bar with their vests on and you can see them drinking alcohol. You're like right, yeah you know or?
Speaker 2:you know, it kind of comes with the territory at that point like how do you so?
Speaker 3:you know guy in daytona at bike fest is wearing his vest and he gets a shot from a shot girl and she's wearing you know negligee, not negligee, but you know, like fish like it was provocative dress oh my god, that's horrible. It's terrible. But then know, I don't know if you ever been to the what's it? The Knights of Arabia or whatever, the belly dancers.
Speaker 2:It's not any more horrible than that to be honest, I just go back to the shot glass girl. It's like how dare females have a body and anatomy that actually people enjoy looking at? Some people are repulsed by this. What, how dare we? Some people are repulsed by this. What, how dare we?
Speaker 1:It's a jealousy thing, it's like how did they get to do that? And I know I think it's more of that. I see the point.
Speaker 2:It's because you're a 50-year-old male and nobody wants to see you in lingerie.
Speaker 3:My guy I see the point, I don't disagree with him Probably shouldn't have had the vest on. We took care of it. We reprimanded the guy. He got suspended. He's actually not a widows son anymore and that's not why. But you understand like, hey, you got to be careful, guys. And and more importantly, don't post it on social media, you know what I mean. Like, because some people could get the wrong idea, no matter how ridiculous it is. You know how it is, man, you can do anything and 10 people will like it, 100 people tell you they didn't like it and nobody understands why either. Has that you?
Speaker 2:know opinion which, honestly, that actually brings up a kind of a shift or a change that I'm seeing within Freemasonry is you're dealing with a generation that had nothing to do with the internet growing up, and I'm talking about the older generations, but you also have my generation, the millennials, that we were the ones that were told to program the VCR and figure out how to operate the internet. You know, get off the phone so I can hop on the internet for a few minutes. So that's kind of the split that I'm seeing is you have a lot of these guys that they want to post things on social media because it's just kind of what we do in the society today. And then you have the older guard. That's like no, if you log into Facebook, they automatically have your social security number.
Speaker 3:It's like that's not the way it works so yeah, I'm, I'm somewhere in the middle, I'm not a millennial, I'm an xer right on.
Speaker 1:Same here, brother, same here. We are the best generation alive right now.
Speaker 2:So you old freaking people. That's right, we're not ruining anything.
Speaker 1:We're also not revolting. We're like, just like, let's, let's chill everybody, let's just let's be normal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you got to love those things on the internet. We're like don't mess with Gen Xers man, they drink from garden hoses. They were told to come back at night. Tell them. I was like, hey, between the time from 2 pm to 3 pm I was forced, almost at gunpoint, to get out of the house and they were like why?
Speaker 2:I said because days of our lives were on and I dare not interrupt days of our lives that's funny.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was a different time, right. Our parents never gave a second thought to is my cook gonna get kidnapped or raped? Just didn matter. It wasn't even a thing that anyone thought about Summertime.
Speaker 3:you jumped on your bicycle at 8 am. You didn't get home until 7 or 8 at night literally, literally for months.
Speaker 1:That would be how you rolled. Your parents would be like you still live here, right? Yeah, I sleep here.
Speaker 2:Let's put it that way. It was funny. My mom actually had a list of houses that she would call, so she would call my buddy Justin's house. If I wasn't there, I was over at Tim's house, she knew where I was.
Speaker 3:It's just all right. How many phone calls am I going to make before I get to him? So that's the generation I come from. Fast forward. Prior to Most Worship Grandmaster Tali getting into office, I had a lunch with the current president of the old Widow Sons, not the old Widow Sons, I don't know what you call them, the Elvira Widow Sons. We'll call them that. They're the original Widow Sons in the state of Florida. Currently they are, and I told them look, the council of presidents, which also is a a mistake. They only meet once a year. Okay, so that means you only communicate with the other chapters once a year in person in january. A year is a long time not to have a meeting or to discuss stuff or issue or any of that stuff. Right now you can have a special zoom meeting, which no offense to Zoom or this kind of forum. When you got 20 guys on a Zoom conference, not a lot gets going. Everyone's talking over each other, one guy can't walk on, the other guy's screaming.
Speaker 1:Somebody forgot to wear pants and stood up.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and then it times out Somebody's going to be eating peanuts and it just sounds like a horse chomping at the bit.
Speaker 3:It's just awful. So I already knew the temperature in the Witte Sons. The reason that is is, you know, I go to all the rallies, I do a lot of riding. I mean, if I don't put 20,000 miles on a motorcycle in a year, I was injured. You know what I mean Because I ride a lot.
Speaker 3:I'll give you an example. I rode from Miami to Savannah, Then I rode 1,000 miles to raise money for the Shriners with the Iron Knights out of Georgia and then I rode home. So I had to ride to Savannah, then ride 1,000 miles and then ride home and it was 3,000 miles in three days. Then the following year I had to do the exact same thing, except we rode 1,200 miles and we were up in South Carolina, so then it was like 3,500 miles in three days. But anyway, point is I ride a lot, so I'm out around these guys a lot, and the temperature was. They never wanted to submit the paperwork to the Grand Lodge because they really felt fear that the next grandmaster would cancel us, so to speak right so my problem with that is twofold.
Speaker 3:Okay, number one I don't like to lie. I I really don't, um, and I felt like the whole thing was a lie. Right, you're, you're, you're riding around saying you're a non-masonic writing association, but you know, really, you are like, what are you going to do if the grandmaster pulls in one of our members and asks do you have to be a merit formation to be a widow? He's faced with two choices. One he can violate his obligation and lie. Or two, he outs the entire organization organization. Neither one of those things is a good choice. None of that's a good choice. So wouldn't it be better to support our paperwork, get approved, work with the grand lodge and act like masons and not have to worry about getting canceled?
Speaker 1:I mean so there was a group of guys that were of that, thinking of like, hey, let's just follow the rules here and let's like get this thing done and let's get back into masonry.
Speaker 3:There's many that were very upset with the move to get away from masonry, so to speak. Now remember what I told you that in order to be a widow son, the first thing you have to be is a master Mason, and then you have to have a motorcycle. So if you just removed the requirement that you're a master Mason from your bylaws, you can't be a widow's son, right, you can't, it's a problem in any event. So when I had this meeting this lunch with the president, I said look at, what I'm going to do is when Tali gets into office, I'm going to get us approved. I'm not going to go to the COP, then we can bring it to the what's the COP.
Speaker 3:Council of Presidents. Sorry, that's. That's the Florida, that's a Florida term right.
Speaker 1:Does Florida answer outside of Florida?
Speaker 3:I'll get to that in a minute. We're all independent. Okay, my point was, if we bring it to the council before they're going to vote, not to submit the paperwork, because I know a few very outspoken that steer the entire group that are against it, and I know that from all year round hearing them oh, we're never doing that, oh, that's never going to happen. And these guys are the ones that once they say something, everyone just follows along. I said but if I do this, then we can give them a real choice. It's not a hypothetical right, because the argument is going to be well, they're never going to approve us, it's going to take six months to approve us. You know it's never going to happen. But ago we could either be a Masonic Riding Association because I have us pre-approved, or not. Choose. That was the intent. That was the intent and instead this happened.
Speaker 3:So I will say in the president's defense, he probably didn't realize I would do it as quickly, efficiently and effectively as I did. Right, I've got text messages saying I'm talking to Tali, I'm smoothing things over with Tali. All true, I spent two hours on the phone with most worshipful grandmaster Tali. He's a great guy, he's like I want to work with you guys. I think it's amazing. I want you to work with the grand lodge, I want to work charities with you. I said, hey, wouldn't it be great if we rode like an honor guard and escorted you places and did things like that? He said that would be amazing. You know what I mean. Like that's what you're supposed to do when you're when you're a messiah writing associate. Imagine, you know, leading tolly to his next gmov or whatever.
Speaker 1:That would be amazing get the news to paying attention to free masonry a little bit right and you know I've been on the news now three or four times with the widow sons.
Speaker 3:One we were raising money and bringing stuff over to the bahamas. One we're handing out turkeys. I mean the news eats this stuff up. They love it they love it.
Speaker 3:So in any event, in his defense, I don't think I ever told him explicitly I'm handing in the paperwork. I kept saying I'm talking to tolly, I'm doing, doing this, I'm doing that. And Tali kept going look, this is what you need to do, do this, do that. And you know he was such a gentleman and such a good brother and counseled us and you know it was all going along great. And I got text messages where I said to the president hey, pretty soon our guys are going to need to make a choice. And this was because I knew Tali was going to possibly sign the paperwork, but not for like three weeks right and he says I hear you, you know, so obviously you know you're communicating, you are.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna be clear. I didn't say, hey, I submitted our paperwork right. I, kind of ego wise, I wanted it to be kind of like a surprise, you know, like hey man, look what I did isn't this great. You know what I mean. Like I swear to god, like isn't this great? Look, I got it done and, and you know so, I said hey, I'm smoothing things over with most worship grandmaster tolly, I'm smoothing things over at the grandmaster.
Speaker 3:He goes oh great, you know, um, I'm gonna get it done, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff, um, and the text messages are in between conversations and if my wife was here, she just walked in when they accused me of not telling them. She's like that's bs. I heard you talking on the phone. You were talking about the phone and you told him I go, I know, but I'm not going to get on the internet and go tit for tat. Yeah, you did. No, you didn't. Yeah, you did. I think really the current president, he's more of a wait and see kind of guy, right, he doesn't necessarily go in. So I think he was just kind of waiting and seeing and maybe he thought it would take longer. But you know, I'm the guy and you probably know this, chris, if you text me, I text you right back. I don't wait.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I was like, hey, chris, what time, how early can you? And he said, let's do it. It's what time? How early can you? And he said, uh, let's do it at six in the morning. And I was like, oh, oh, you're, you're like you're one of those I knew you were military immediately when you said let's record it. Six in the morning and I went to matt and I was like matt, can you get?
Speaker 2:and he was like no, so the funny thing about that is, I don't know why, but for some odd reason and just kind of no, not at 60. Highly upset to the point where she reprimanded me at lunch dad, you can't leave for work until I tell you bye, don't do that again.
Speaker 3:Oh my she's gonna make a great wife to some man I have an 11 year old, but he used to be like that. You can't leave without saying goodbye to me yep, and honestly it's adorable.
Speaker 2:But it's kind of like a cats in the cradle moment where it's like I really feel bad for, you know, being at work and traveling for masonry and I travel out of state for different stuff and it's like I don't get to see my daughter as much as I want to.
Speaker 3:But this is kind of the life we're called to, right, right and then I have the same issue because I try to incorporate my son into almost all of my widow son's activities and my wife hates it because I'll make her drive him to wherever I'm going and then he'll hang out with me and sometimes he'll'll ride on the motorcycle, but some of these rides are long, right, and he's 11, you know he's got the attention span, so they'll ride in the car and I'll find things for him to do.
Speaker 3:You know, I went to the Grand Gathering in Chicago. They flew out to Chicago together, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Because, of that.
Speaker 3:I feel like I'm away from him too long. You know what I mean. I had him late in life, obviously because I'm old and he's 11, so I gotta spend time with him.
Speaker 2:so so actually this this brings up a question, and now that you've kind of given like a 30 000 foot overview of the situation, this kind of brings up a question is I'm familiar with other appendant bodies and I use quotation fingers on that for those listening on audio I'm aware of other masonic appendant bodies that intentionally do not seek the recognition of the Grand Lodge of Florida. So in that aspect I could kind of see why the other brothers that split off and did their own thing, or however you want to look at it. But either way, the group that is not recognized by the Grand Lodge of Florida, I totally see their side of it of they don't want to bend the knee when the person who's in charge for a year could potentially be a tyrannical dictator and I'm not saying that anybody was, but that very well could possibly happen Because Wittesons is an extension of your fraternity.
Speaker 3:So you're a Mason, you can be a Wittesons. Wittesons is an extension of that. You can be a widow's son. Widow's sons is an extension of that. So if you're not a Mason, you can't be a widow's son.
Speaker 2:Right. So this is where I guess some of the confusion was at, because my wife started. My wife picked up on this widow's son stuff and started asking me about it and I'm like I have no idea, like how did you figure this out? So my wife started asking me about it and she's like, well, it's an appendant body, doesn't have? It isn't directly controlled by the Grand Lodge, correct? I'm like no, the Grand Lodge actually has authority if the people in it are supposed to be master masons, because that is in our obligation that we're going to be doing this.
Speaker 2:At the same time, I understand the Hesitance. Yeah, no, not hesitance, not hesitant. I understand kind of the, the mythos of motorcycle riders associations, where they don't like they're very anti-authority and they're very quick to flip the bird to any anybody who would exhibit authority over them. So kind of, walk us through the masonic obligation and how you balance those two out. You have the, the flavor of masonic riders or sorry, motorcycle riders associations, and then you also have a masonic obligation which might be in conflict with that right, so you're correct, right.
Speaker 3:Guys who ride motorcycles and background I've been riding motorcycles for 33 years. Um, I've ridden with the outlaws, I've ridden with the pagans, I've ridden with all not not patched, just so you know I was never an mc, but they're friends and I would ride with them. And you know I was always an independent guy. Um, that that said, you're correct. So guys who ride motorcycles that are bikers not just masons that own motorcycles, but bikers um, really hate it when there's someone who has authority over them. Right, but you know, we live in society.
Speaker 3:Everyone has authority over us. Right, you go through a red light, you're gonna get pulled over. Guess what? You has authority over us. Right, you go through a red light, you're going to get pulled over. Guess what. You've got authority over you. You get arrested. You go in front of the judge. Guess what he's got authority over you. So in masonry we all decided to become masons and when we took our obligations, we agreed and acknowledged and accepted that the most worshipful grandmaster has ultimate authority over us as it relates to the fraternity. We will obey all due signs, summonses. I'm sure I'm not getting it correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Which is probably a good idea Edicts, whatever. So now, as a widow's son, you're not technically really an appendant body. We haven't been given appendant body status. I don't think. I'm not sure how you do that, if it can be done, but when's the last time you saw the most worship grandmaster walk into the shrine and tell them how to run things? Never Walk into the temple and tell them how to run things. But my point is it's rare.
Speaker 1:You're right, they try to. They're not there to try to cause problems. For the most part they're there to just try to coordinate and think about it.
Speaker 3:He's got 30 000 masons. Does he really want to run my organization as well? I don't think so.
Speaker 2:No so the whole point. I guess it depends on the character archetype that you have sitting in the grandmaster seat, sure?
Speaker 3:but he, he can't possibly control them all. It would be too much work, to be honest with you, really. I mean, the guy would have to work 24 hours a day and even then he wouldn't be able to do it because there's so many different human beings. That said, his main goal really is to just make sure we're all acting like masons. And if you're all acting like masons, you're fine. If you actually handle your own stuff and let him know hey, we saw this, we're handling it, that's fine. I promise you, that's all they want. They want to know that it's being handled. So if a schweiner gets out of line and does something crazy, you know he's whatever. He's going to want to hear from that potentate that says hey, we got this, we're handling right and you don't need to. Um, in our. In my opinion, if someone who widowsons did something that egregious, they're probably going to be brought up on masonic charges because that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Like, you belong to a particular lodge, which means you answer to the worshipful master. He can summon, he can order you right. He has control over you.
Speaker 3:So my point is if you don't want to be a Masonic Riding Association, if you don't want to be an extension of your fraternity, there are plenty of motorcycle riding associations out there, right? In fact, the current original Widow Sons are a motorcycle riding association. They're not Masonic and easy. Go on Sun Biz and look at it. We are the Widow Sons Masonic Riding Association of Florida.
Speaker 1:They are the Widow Sons Motorcycle Riding Association of Florida right, okay, so there are now two Widow Sons officially, although they have slightly different names, and one is affiliated with masonry and one is not correct however, the one that's not affiliated with masonry would say they are affiliated, but you know, on the down low um, how can they make that argument when, uh, they're not?
Speaker 2:I mean well, it's pretty, it's pretty easy to make the argument whenever you're, whenever you're talking about your intent behind the argument of my intention is for this to be a masonic riders association, but, and then we can get into the fact that they don't have been the need of grand lodge there is in their mind, and I'm I'm not taking one side or the other here.
Speaker 2:I hope y'all guys don't like that, but I'm trying to break down the argument of trying to see the both sides of here. We go three, two, one fight. So so I'm just trying to break down the argument, because it seems like you do have these group of brothers that they are considering themselves masonic, although they are not officially labeled as masonic. But who cares if you're officially labeled as masonic or not, because I don't want to bend the knee to grand lodge anyway.
Speaker 3:So so I totally see that aspect and I also you have to be disingenuous, then you have to be disingenuous. You have to be, you have to. There's no way around it. They were all Masons. Well, now you got 4701, 4702 and and 4703 to contend with in the digest, yeah, so you got to go. We're not Masons. Oh, okay, you're not Masons. Well, you know.
Speaker 2:Okay. So yeah, okay, I see that argument, and then I also see your.
Speaker 1:I want to beat this dog.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. And I also see your side of it and your side of it within the lines here. This isn't that big of a deal. So so kind of walk us through kind of your intention behind forming or, I should say, playing nice with the grand lodge. I mean, is this in direct competition with with the other group of the widow's sons? I mean, what's going on here?
Speaker 3:My intent was this submit the paperwork. I submitted it as the state president because you have to. The state president of the group that you're intending that get recognized and approved has to sign the paperwork. Tyrian riders just did it back in january.
Speaker 2:Low 12 did it many years ago right, in fact, um first of his name was uh, was the uh founder of the low 12.
Speaker 3:So I submitted it and, quite frankly, it's a placeholder, right if you're? If you're a lawyer or anybody like that, you know I could switch a president out in five seconds. I honestly, god can't. And I formed the Florida Corporation because it's a 5013C and you have to have a corp and I did it. I could change that right now, talking to you, without you even knowing it. It'll take me two seconds.
Speaker 3:So it was all done as a placeholder to have this entity created and you notice the names are very similar, in fact the initials are exactly the same to be able to present it to the craft and say, look, we now can be Masonic. Who wants to be Masonic? And then if if everyone said they didn't want to be Masonic, then I would be faced with either just shit can't well, we're on a podcast, right, and I just said the word shit can't, that's a military term. I could shit can the new thing I created and stay with the widow sons, or I could change the name or I could keep the name. The reason I can keep the name is the name Witta Sons refers to all Masons number one, number two there is no ownership interest in that name. It's been out in the public domain too long for there to be any ownership interest in it, so no one can trademark it, copyright it or anything else. There are past examples where we've had more than one Witta Sons organization within the same state Louisiana's one, in fact. In Florida we had two at one point for a very brief period of time. So one of the reasons why you want the Wittesons name is because, although they're all independent states, in other words, florida doesn't answer to Alabama, alabama doesn't answer to Florida. You know what I mean. We're all independent, widowsons are all independent. They're not really one giant group, it's little groups. All mean the same thing because they have a lot of rallies and stuff and they'll be opened only to widowsons, right.
Speaker 3:And it's really cool to ride out to Oklahoma or Chicago and go to a giant rally filled with literally 2,000 masons from across the world. I don't mean the country, I mean the world and meeting all these guys. And you know, I've got friends in Mexico, I got friends in Canada, I got friends in Argentina, I got, you know, I mean everywhere. I got guys text me from Argentina. Hey, we're going to be in Miami, can you help us out? Yeah, man, what do you need? You need a motorcycle, your motorcycle. What do you? You know, let's go and it's great. So that's really so like the tyrian riders can't go to a widowson event in chicago because they're the tyrian riders and it's open to widowsons only, right. So that's the benefit of having the widowsons name.
Speaker 3:Now we may get blackballed from all these things because what's happening in florida? Until the dust settles, right? There's a lot of positive things that were written, but there's also a lot of negative things, because people don't understand, right, a lot of my statement. I said my intent was not to hijack the Wittesons, right? And then everyone started using the word hijack. I'm like, yeah, you thought that up yourself.
Speaker 2:So it almost seems like you and I operate very similarly. So it's not the exact same scenario, but I've had it before where it's like all right, I have a craft that I have to present this to, so I do all this work on the front end and then present it to the craft.
Speaker 2:So it almost seems like that's what you were doing of. Hey, I've already done all the heavy lifting of every single bit of this. Now it's up to you guys, if you want it or not. And guess what, if you don't want it, I can dissolve it with a click of a button. It's that fast.
Speaker 3:Literally 100%. That's what it is. So you know that's where we're at. Instead, it went over, like, you know, a lead balloon or a fart in church, whichever one you prefer, whichever metaphor, and everyone's like you're trying to steal the Widow Sons. I'm not trying to steal the Widow Sons, but just so you know, the guys that are with us are all Widow Sons branded. Widow Sons Branding is a degree that's given within the Widow Sons. These guys, you know there's at least 50 to 100, probably 100 people. What gives the other 100 guys that we left behind the right to use the name but not us? I've got 40 members in my chapter alone. Anchor and Arc has 11 members, so now you're up to 51. Hiram's Wheels got 20 members, now you're up to 71. Island Knights has 10 or 15, no, 17 members. You start doing the numbers. You're like that's a lot of guys, and how come the other group gets to use the widow son name but we don't? Um, you know what I mean. Like we've earned the name just as much as they have. I've given.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, you're the only one rightfully that should be using the name because it is a Masonic writing. The widow's son is a Masonic reference, so correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean those guys that I've chosen not to, and I understand where they're coming from. Trust me, I was also persecuted that last year and also had very negative feelings about how that was being done, and I understand their frustration. But we are Masons. First, correct, we need to follow our obligation, which is let's do it the right way, let's get everything lined up, let's get our paperwork done, let's get approved, which you've done. So really, there's no choice in my mind. Even if I was a disgruntled with the Grand Lodge guy from before, I would still want to be Masonic and I always try to do the right thing by masonry as a man, and I'm sure you guys do too.
Speaker 1:That was our mantra was your mason choice here. Like I need to be a member of the one that's recognized.
Speaker 3:That's it so our mantra when I joined was you're a mason first, the witness on second. Keep that in mind, right, always, always act like a mason, okay, well?
Speaker 2:and even still to kind of build on this and burns you and I have talked about this quite a bit is that if your perception of authority is that you know if the wrong, if the opposite party is in there and you're just absolutely terrified about that, then that authority has too much authority. You know and I'm talking about the president of the United States specifically If it freaks you out that the other side won for the next four years, then that position holds too much weight. So in that, if the widow's sons who are now not recognized by the grand lodge of florida, if that is a concern for you, that you don't want to bend the knee to somebody who you think could be tyrannical, you could very easily draft legislation in order to kind of shackle the grandmaster seat a little bit or put a little bit more checks and balances in. So this is a war that can be won.
Speaker 1:But it has to be a long-term ordeal and you need to be doing it. You can't change that from the outside. You can only change it from the inside.
Speaker 3:So my intent, most worshipful Grandmaster Talley's intent, was hopefully that everyone would come over and we could merge them. And he told me look at this time next year I hope you have 100 chapters. He wants us to grow. He wants us because it helps masonry, it shines a light on masonry. We're the pole bearers for masonry. We raise a lot of money we could help, we can help the masonic home.
Speaker 3:I want to say, um, the the first lady's charity this year is the third floor of the mic Home to build a rehab facility. We're going to raise a bunch of money for that, to help that, because I think that's a great cause right for all the people in the Masonic Home and that's a far cry from what I was understanding was happening last year. So you know what I mean. Like that's the intent. We really want to bring them together. And you know, maybe my delivery was wrong or bad, I don't know. You know I'm pretty straightforward. I'm not good at sugarcoating stuff, I'm not good at finessing I'm. You tell me to do something, I can do it and I get it done, uh, usually pretty fast, efficiently and effectively.
Speaker 1:So and you did. You're now recognized by the grand lodge of florida, you know, officially back as a masonic writers association and you have members right. People have signed up and are officially yeah, we have a lot.
Speaker 3:We have people. We have people that used to be with us, sons calling us, saying, hey, can I come back? Now that you're a masonic riding association? And I say, of course, here's a petition, we've got guys that like from long time ago, I still have my motorcycle. Can I come back? Yes, you're branded with a son, you can come back. We're now again a Masonic Riding Association. I'm telling you people I've never even heard of and I've been in it for six years.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. I just want to be clear about this, specifically for the listeners. What you're saying is that you did the heavy lifting, you created this organization, you set yourself as the president, but… as a placeholder, exactly as a placeholder. So you are willing, ready and able to give this power up at a drop of a hat correct there.
Speaker 3:There's one, there's one caveat that they have to change the back patch, and there's a lot of guys that don't want to do that because they're in love with that, that anime. But that anime causes more problems than good. Right, and maybe we could make it a front patch as an homage to the original. Why they're in love with it? I don't know If you think about it, this was just something one guy picked back in 1999. There's no real, oh my God, that's our roots. It's not.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 3:He picked an anime. He could have easily have picked the Pyramid with Wings and we'd all have pyramid and wins, but he didn't. So the change. A lot of guys, just they fall in love with the patch. And I and I wrote a piece that said look at, it's not the patch, it's not the vest, it's not even the name, guys, it's the brotherhood, it's the working together, it's the masonic. Uh, you know principles, right, what it's about, you know? I mean.
Speaker 1:The patch doesn't make you anything, it's just an object that has no meaning in reality.
Speaker 3:Correct. So you know, I learned through most worship, grandmaster tally, that the line hates our patch, like they all hate it, Like universally. I heard from other states that everyone hates our patch. I've heard from brothers who said they were going to join the widow sons but didn't want to because they didn't want that patch. I sent you what where the patch came from, chris. I mean it's. You know what I mean? There's nothing, it's not really a Masonic. No, this is Hiram a Brit. This is a picture of Hiram a bit wife or something.
Speaker 1:Okay, honestly that's what a lot of, because I would. Uh, we had a whole wall dedicated to the widow sons in our lot and that was a big centerpiece. Was that patch?
Speaker 1:right and now I just sent you the picture it came from, which is a Japanese, japanese anime sexy ninja it's lost my mind because I had no idea where it came from until you just sent me that I brought a lot of guys into the fraternity and they would look at that and go. So is that the Widow's Son's wife and I'd be like it might be. Honestly, I don't know. There is a lot of people that just assume that that's supposed to represent the Widow's Son's wife. It's just's wife.
Speaker 3:There's a thing a guy wrote and it's touching. It's supposed to symbolize a widow with an ashen face finding out that her husband, who was a Mason, died, and concerned about how she's going to survive without him and raise her children. So I get that that symbolism is nice, but it's made up after the fact, just so you know, right. All right, how do we justify this sexy ninja on the back of our jacket, our vest? I got it. Let me come up with this statement about her being an ashen, you know, widow, just not masonic. Our, the one we did, is masonic and it's a copy, loosely, uh, on the other states and we wanted it to look enough like the other states so that we're blended in and quite frankly, right.
Speaker 3:So there are other countries and other states that have modified it slightly, right so the wings and the working tools of the pyramid and, and you know, if you go on the internet and you look, you'll see like five different, similar but not the same access that that we picked. So anyway, that's why we picked that. We wanted to kind of blend it.
Speaker 1:You know it sounds like it comes down to we want to. You know, brothers, don't like change. Nobody likes change. You know it's hard to do change and you're making a change and right, so there is going to be resistance. I get that. I think you're trying to be sympathetic to them too right, and say look man, I understand why you're upset, but like this is what it is, and like we've met all the rules and just come home.
Speaker 3:Right and just come home and be with us. And one of the believe it or not one of the biggest sticking point will be the back patch and I say look at, if 90 of the world had the elvira on the back, I'd say you're right, let's stick with it. We are the only, we're the only ones with it. Man, I'm telling you you go through all 50 other states. They got the pyramided wings. You go to other countries, they all have the pyramided wings. Go on the internet, look. I mean I don't.
Speaker 1:It can be a little embarrassing when you're the only one holding on to something that everyone else has already Moved past. I mean, like Florida was one of the few jurisdictions that doesn't recognize Prince Hall, and to me, as a Mason, that was always like a Embarrassing Right. So it's like let's get on board with everybody Else and get this done. I don't see the problem in that. I do understand that people are going to resist that. However, you know it's like in anything you go to your blue lodge. Some idea comes up that you disagree with. You stand up and you fervently state your views and somebody else states theirs and the craft decides when that decision's made. You need to get on board, right. You had your say, you had your chance. It went another way. So now it's time to be a good mason and go with the will of the craft.
Speaker 3:Right and remember you're a mason first.
Speaker 1:And so how are you feeling now that this is kind of all, it's all fresh, right this is all coming out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I feel terrible. I have a lot of friends, you know, like people I used to talk to every day, jim Bay being one of them, the president, you know, talk to him all the time. So I feel terrible that they either misunderstood or think I was trying to do something sneaky because I wasn't, or trying to steal something because I'm not. I'm telling you, man, I run a 50-man law firm, six offices in multiple states. The last thing I need is more responsibility to govern someone else. I got to be honest with you my job.
Speaker 3:I work 12, 14 hours a day. I don't need to run a motorcycle riding association, I'd rather just be part of the motorcycle riding association, the Masonic Motorcycle Riding Association. I'm president of my chapter, which takes a lot of time in and of itself. Do you really think I want to be president of a state as well? I don't. I just wanted to get it set up, get it done right and then be able to to make it right for everyone, I mean well, I imagine what's going to happen now is you will have a meeting at some point of the what you call it, the co.
Speaker 1:That, yeah, I won't be at it.
Speaker 3:So that's the problem, right, they won't. They won't allow me out of it. How to?
Speaker 1:see, I imagine you'll have your own now, because this is your organization, right, yeah, at some point, and and you as an organization will pick your own leadership moving forward, right, so it's gonna, it's gonna, naturally fix itself oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not complaining, yeah thing.
Speaker 3:You know, with these other guys where he's like it's a power grab, right, 100, not a power grab. You know what I mean? Right, I'm happy to help, I'm happy to do whatever you need legally. Um, I was doing that for the old organization. I'm the one, when they wanted to change the name, that changed the name. I'm the one that wrote all their bylaws. Literally all their bylaws were written by me. That took a lot of time.
Speaker 3:Now, when you say, did it cost me money, it did cost me money because it took me 20, 30 hours. And guess what I wasn't doing during those 20, 30 hours? Billing at $850 an hour. I wasn't doing that, so I wasn't making any money. So I gave you guys a really good break, trust me, really. Eight hundred fifty dollars I give you guys. I give you guys a really good break, trust me really.
Speaker 3:We call it the friends and family rate. Most times I don't charge at all. Um, because that's what masonic brothers do. You know? My brother's kid got in trouble. I had to handle it, get it dismissed. I didn't charge my brother, right, I got another brother. He wasn't getting paid. I had to go after the people that didn't pay him, he got paid. What do I owe you? You owe me a beer and give me a beer. You know what I mean. Like I make enough money doing other stuff, I don't need to charge my brothers. Now, if you give me a case that takes me 10 hours a day for a year, I'm gonna have to charge, I mean what did you.
Speaker 3:That said, I feel terrible that they now all hate me. I'm public enemy number, that they're misunderstanding my intentions, and you know, quite frankly, you know it just kind of took on a life of its own with this. You know what I mean. The only reason we had the other back patches made were because we knew what the grand line was, you know, and everything else.
Speaker 1:So so, hypothetically, just as a hypothetical, if those guys came back to this new organization, including the leadership, you would have no problem with seeing them reelected to the leadership of the new organization. Right, correct? Yeah, when the time comes.
Speaker 3:December, January, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't be mad about that, you would be, you'd be 100%.
Speaker 3:They come right over every single one. Now we're a Masonic writing association, like we weren't going to do this damn thing, and you know, in fact, right now, you know you, you have this responsibility.
Speaker 1:You are the president, right?
Speaker 3:This is the organization that is recognized, so I'm setting up infrastructure, I'm doing all this stuff. Yeah, you know, I told everyone that went in this endeavor I said, you know, there's a good chance they want to come over and they want to keep the elvira patch, and then we're going to have to go talk to grand lodge. I think it's going to go badly. I'm just just saying you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, does the patch have to be approved by Grand Lodge?
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't. You don't want it does not.
Speaker 1:It's not part of the official process, but it's like an unofficial thing that you want.
Speaker 3:I mean you really want. Every time the guy looks at it go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Plus you've kind of just gone with the rest of the country, which is kind of a no brainer in my mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the rest of the country, the rest of the world yeah we got them in australia, we got them in ireland, we got them in france, italy, bulgaria, hungary. We got them everywhere.
Speaker 1:Buddy, it's pretty amazing, really do feel bad for those brothers that are on the other side of this, because I know I mean, you probably feel like they hate you, but I doubt that they actually hate you. I think there's just a lot of confusion right now and this is all happening fast to them, right, and it seems like it's happening fast.
Speaker 2:so my hope is that, uh, when the information gets out and they really look at it without the emotions, hopefully their better senses will rule and they'll come back to like let's just be Masonic together again and all these rules, and like let's get back to raising money, do a charity and having fun and being brothers and come back to masonry well and and, honestly, if I could try to broker a little bit of peace here what one thing that I noticed last year is, whenever you have um, trying to think of a polite way to say this when you have rules that are being enforced in an aggressive manner, uh, what that'll typically do to those that are having the rules enforced upon them is it'll start to splinter and cause division.
Speaker 2:That isn't contention between that party. That's exterior force being applied. So the, the brothers on both sides of this conversation and from what it sounds like, it sounds like the, the brothers that are not recognized by grand lodge right now y'all guys have to understand is that there's still good intention being done and performed on the opposite side of this argument. It was an exterior force that created this contention in the first place. So it makes most sense in the world to just all right, let the tempers calm down a little bit, let the temperature cool down, let's come back together, let's have a reconciliation, agreed.
Speaker 3:And that's what I want.
Speaker 1:That's going to be your challenge just having to work through that now.
Speaker 3:I'll earn that uh certified by the supreme court of florida as a mediator, and they don't all earn that badge if I'm able to do this well.
Speaker 1:We really appreciate you coming on and helping us understand and helping the listeners kind of understand better what's going on in the widow sons, what led you here and what you're doing now what a son is a great organization, as we say, what a son's, forever Sons. If someone wants to join the Widow Sons, or if you have a member of the old Widow Sons that wants to come back, how can they reach you? What's the best way to do that?
Speaker 3:The email is probably the best way. My email address is CW, that's Charlie Whiskey, at WMD, that's weapons of mass destruction. Dash law L-A-W dot org. O-r-g. Yes, it was done on purpose. Yes, it was formed back in the day.
Speaker 1:I saw that in your email and I thought nah, it's got to mean something else.
Speaker 2:I love that email. Everything from the Charlie Whiskey on.
Speaker 3:So that's my email address. That's one of the fastest ways to get ahold of me. Shoot me an email. I've already sent out three or four petitions from old brothers that want to come back, and I'm happy they do and we can get to the business of being Widow Sons, having fun, fellowship, raising money for charity and being good Masons is there anything, as we go on the way out, that you would like to share with the fraternity?
Speaker 1:not not even necessarily just the widow, sons, but you have an opportunity here to speak to masons all over the world. Is there? What would you tell them?
Speaker 3:the widow sons as a whole when I joined masonry. You know they say to make good men better and it was always my opinion that the widow sons were the best of the better. Right, these were guys that held in high regard. Brotherhood actually meant brotherhood. You're stuck on the side of the road at 4 in the morning. You call me. I get up, I put my shoes on, I'm there, you get arrested. You call me, I'm going to the jail. I'm getting you out.
Speaker 3:It's convenient to be a brother when it's easy, when you're a brother when it's easy, when you're a brother when it's inconvenient, that's when you know you have a true brother. And in the Witta Sons that's kind of how it was. You know we were true brothers and good masons. So for the rest of the world, the Witta Sons is a great organization. It's the best of the better in my opinion and you know I just I hope this works out in the state of florida. I'm sure it will. One way or another the dust will settle and it'll work out and we'll get back to the business of being good masons, working hand in hand with the grand lodge, which is what cements your relationship with the grand lodge and, uh, you know, riding motorcycles and having fun.
Speaker 1:Love it. Great message and thank you for coming on and being with us and sharing your morning. Matt. Anything for the brothers on our way out.
Speaker 2:Nope. May peace and brotherly love prevail. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:You know we are all Widow Sons is just one aspect of the fallout from last year. The entire state is going through some form of trying to come back together, trying to find normalcy, you know.
Speaker 3:So it was very divisive last year, you know yeah, it was like most like our politics, to be honest with you yeah, exactly, it was like man. It infected everything. Everybody was very divisive and, uh, we gotta be still, it's very divisive and the.
Speaker 1:The root of this, all of this is we've stopped talking to each other, correct? That's the? That's the reason we had so much chaos last year. Because they gagged the state. They said we're not going to talk, we don't want you talking, we're not talking about this, um, and it just caused so many problems, and it's the same thing in politics. I can't talk to you if you don't think like me, because you're evil, you're the bad guy.
Speaker 3:Instead, they should have joined the conversation. You understand, that's the key. We got to talk about this together. Join the conversation and you can educate and explain. Then it's above the board, right, and that's, and that's what you need. So when you try to stifle the conversation, that's a problem. When you refuse to speak to someone else because they don't think like you, well then how are you ever going to get another perspective, how are you ever going to understand their position? How do you even know your position's right? You may talk to me for 10 minutes and I may go. You know what You're right. I see your position. I mean, I'd say it out loud, but in my mind I'll say it and you know right, because everyone's got an ego. And then tomorrow I'm espousing your position because what you said was correct. So you got to listen, man, you got to just keep, you got to open heart. I guess is the best way to say it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't want to sound too corny well, and and here's the thing that I've kind of discovered is you also have to trust your brother's intention. Um, that's one thing that I noticed real big last year is as I was trying to work you know, this angle at Turkey Creek. I have brothers that were pissed, I mean furious, with me and I'm like no, you need to understand my intention behind this, and my intention behind this is for the good of Turkey Creek, the good of the craft, the good of you, name it. You know like I'm trying to do the most good here, but instead it because you're not having that conversation, because you're not talking and keeping communication flowing.
Speaker 1:They think the worst of you, and that's a that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a bad place to be man.
Speaker 3:It really is yeah, as soon as you start making assumptions, you're immediately wrong yeah, 100, but you're operating like you know something that you you're very confident that you're saying something with such confidence and authority that people are like it must be true it's not right.
Speaker 1:Right, we lie to ourselves all the time and and our worst enemy is our ego.
Speaker 3:It's the enemy of man, is the ego we have to admit you're right, to admit you're wrong, or to admit the other side is right. You almost can't do it right.
Speaker 2:It hurts, you're like I I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about. I get up every day, look in the mirror and say you've got a phenomenal head of hair.
Speaker 3:You are just so handsome look at, buddy, I'm not far behind you. You know, I mean this. This hairline keeps going and going and going on a full-blown retreat I'm with you, man.
Speaker 1:I'm getting this weird like yeah, I mean it's so.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing, and and we've said it on the show before but I'm on, I'm on TRT, and so it's so funny because all of this is not coming back. But, dadgummit, I have got hair on my back. That is insane. Like if all of y'all could just move to the proper location, that'd be great buddy, I know, I know the feeling.
Speaker 3:Trust me, I know the feeling spades what's up?
Speaker 1:brother. Yes, thank you, we we do appreciate it. Thank you very much. Hopefully you'll come back on the podcast and keep us updated as things progress yeah, man, anytime all right, thank you so much I'm level. Podcast is out, bye.
