Speaker 1: 0:10

you've reached the internet's home for all things masonry. Join on the level podcast as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft and try to unlock the mysteries, dispel the fallacies and utilize the teachings of freemasonry to unlock the greatness within each of us. I have you now. Let's go, let's get it A lot of material on that one.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Oh, please, please, everybody sit down, please. Thank you so much. I know people Welcome back Matt. What is up? Chris, my brother, how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:56

I'm feeling good. We are here today. We are here At long last to address a book I long have sought to talk about publicly. It is called Born in Blood. Such a good book, born in Blood, by John R Robinson. Wow, I don't know how you came across the book. I don't know if I recommended it to you or if you got that on your own, but I'm pretty sure it's been.

Speaker 2: 1:20

A lot of the brothers have recommended that. They've recommended the Lost Keys of Solomon, some of the other ones that they've recommended, but yeah, there's so many masonic books out there this is a book that I recommend to every mason that comes to sarasota 147.

Speaker 1: 1:36

There is a lengthy process, as you all know, to join the fraternity. You've got to wait 30 days, gotta be held over, right, another boat has to happen. So you're talking six weeks minimum, probably from the time you petition, when you get your editor, and it's great easily most likely more than six weeks. This is a book you can read in six weeks. It actually might take you all of six weeks to read it. It's not a small book and it is full of history and a little bit of hypothesizing, a little bit, but mostly history. So it does raise some really interesting questions. This book is one I recommend, and I always recommend freemasonry for dummies. Two very good things for people that are waiting for that. Don't go online and start researching stuff if you're going to join freemasonry, because you're just going to spoil it for yourself.

Speaker 2: 2:25

Unless you're finding it strictly here at On the Level Podcast, where we try our best to dispel the fallacies and the garbage being said about Masonry.

Speaker 1: 2:36

Yes, we do, and we just released one a couple of podcasts ago about 10 things that people say that aren't real. You'll find that kind of content here, but we will also delve deeply into things about the fraternity. Right now this isn't necessarily about the fraternity, but it kind of is in a way, because Freemasonry is somewhat involved in the story of this book and the ties between the Knight Templar and Freemasonry I kind of brought up in this book, which, it needs to be said at the onset, brothers, and it doesn't matter who you are in the fraternity.

Speaker 2: 3:06

What needs to be said is that we're going to be discussing some things out of this book. That is going to seem like we are violating our obligation, but it needs to be noted that john robinson was never a mason. He was never a mason. He became a masonic historian, yeah, just because he was so fascinated with this story and the ties and everything. So some of the things that we're going to cover today is going to be about some of the things that were in the lodge, some of the history of the lodge, some of the history with the Knights Templars. It's going to seem like we're violating our obligation, but we're not. These are all things that are printed in this book, so we're not going to reveal the secrets of the goats and the green beans, so please don't be scared about that. That's not what we're doing here today.

Speaker 1: 3:42

No, and, as you said, he wasn't a Freemason and I don't believe he ever became a Freemason, but he was a historian. So he set out to write a book about the Peasants' Revolt, and in his research he uncovered so much interesting material that it became something more than that. His book is heavily researched. It became something more than that. His book is heavily researched and, in my opinion and also scholars the book presents some well-argued cases for previously unexplored connections between Freemasonry proper and the Knights Templar of old. It's gained a strong following among both historians and Freemasons, sparking an ongoing debate about the real origins of the Masonic Order. So you know, this is something that people can get really touchy about.

Speaker 1: 4:33

We, worshipful David Finkelstein, used to go around my district doing a debate. We had a Masonic education that we framed in the form of a debate, where he took the position that there was absolutely no connection between Knights Templar and Freemasonry and I took yeah, he took that position of no, this is all made up, fantasy, you can't find any proof of this. Okay, I took the position of there's so much overwhelming proof of this, you're crazy for not believing. And so we did a debate, we would do a debate, and I would always start by saying would anyone that is a Knight Templar in New York please raise your hand, and you'd see my hands go up and I'd throw my papers away and go. They're sober, because I hate to tell you, my brothers, that we have a degree and you are confirmed the title of Knight Templar and you have a dues card that says Knight Templar on it and people call you sir.

Speaker 1: 5:29

So there is a strong connection between the Knight Templar and Freemasonry. Now what you're going to hear is that that was all made up. That degree was made up years after Freemasonry became public and it wasn't part of our original work. I would still argue why do we have positions like the marshal in our life, which is a militant term? Why would we have a military position if we were an esoteric kind of like uh thinking man's group? Why would we include a military position as a position of power? It's an officer in our, in every lives that one doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 2: 6:03

Still, I actually met in gosh hollywood, florida, which is just north of miami. I went down there for a medical training class and I met a guy who, whenever I walked into his store it was a, it was a gun store, um, and we were holding the class inside the gun store there is, there are Knights Templar stuff everywhere. When I mean everywhere, I'm talking like there was like a medical diagram over here of how to apply a tourniquet and then right next to it was like a plaque for Templars. So I ended up talking to the guy and I was like, hey, you know, brother, you know, and cause I think I was an entered apprentice at that time, you know, so I addressed him as brother and, you know, wanted to chat with him a little bit more. And then he's like I was like all right, so where were you raised at? And he's like raised. I was like, yeah, where were you raised at? He's like no, I'm part of the other Knights Templar. He's like we're the real Knights Templar.

Speaker 2: 6:52

Now, the funny thing about it was is, as I was talking to him a little bit, apparently, yeah, there's two different orders of Knights Templar branch of the Masonic appendant body, the York Rite, yeah, and so it was super interesting because he still referred to me as brother. So the two organizations do look at each other affectionately and, of course, we'll have each other's backs. We communicate. There's another one online I deal with called Idaho Templar, who is a fantastic individual, but I think he's a York Rite Mason. So either way, they're two organizations that are different, but they still look at each other affectionately.

Speaker 1: 7:28

So it makes sense to me there would be more than one group that survives through our time. There wouldn't be just one group. You know, look at any major institution and bits of the truth survive in each of them, right? Like we talked about this when we covered Christianity, I think there were 400 something denominations today which started with just one.

Speaker 2: 7:55

It wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that there would be more than one Knight Templar, which even still I just pulled it up just for kicks and giggles the Knights Templar of is the, is the organization. It is a 501c3 upholding the ideals of chivalry and christian religious commitment and protection, crusade historical research and finding today's enemy of society, namely disease and social distress, through charitable efforts and fundraising. So that's the actual non-masonic branch of the Knights Templars. But again, we all look at each other as brothers.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah, okay, so let's get into this. We are going to talk a lot about the Knight Templars because it's a lot of this book. So the Knight Templars if you're going to talk about what we know for sure, about the Knight Templar, we know that they were a powerful medieval military and religious order founded in the early 12th century during the Crusades. That's not disputed. Initially, they were tasked with protecting Christian pilgrims traveling from the Holy Land. The order quickly grew in power, amassing vast wealth and political influence. Their sophisticated financial network made them the medieval equivalent of bankers and I've heard it often said that Templars invented the banking system and they did involve themselves in lending money to monarchs and managing large estates. Now, that also probably led to their downfall.

Speaker 2: 9:24

Yes, for some odd reason reason and call me crazy here whenever you gain more wealth, mass and power than both the crown and the catholic church during the medieval times, it kind of puts you on a radar that you don't want to be on yeah, that's probably not a good place to be for two off.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Probably not the best thing, not for two off. Maybe in peace time it's okay. Definitely they did it wrong. So let's talk about the first part of that. How did the poor fellows right that their symbol literally was two knights riding on one horse because they couldn't afford enough money to have a horse for every man? And you'll see, I have Knight Templar's shield and sword back here and that symbolism is all over it. It's a horse with two knights on it, and that's how you knew who the Knight Templars were.

Speaker 1: 10:15

They were originally called the Four Knights of Solomon's Temple, or something along those lines, I believe, because they did guard Solomon's Temple and they did guard pilgrims making their way to Solomon's Temple to see the ruins. Now, from what I understand, one of the ways they could help protect pilgrims on their way is they set up consistories where they would have an establishment in this city and have an establishment in another city. That was protected because it was a military order, although it was sanctioned by the Catholic Church at the time. They were elite fighters. Right, these were knights. These were not just some willy-nilly guys who were church-going people that picked up swords.

Speaker 2: 11:03

They were trained and lived as warriors, and not only that, but if you look at a lot of what, the characteristics that they put into their soldiers, it wasn't too dissimilar from the Spartans about a thousand years prior to. So the Spartans fell about. Oh sorry, the Battle of Thermopylae or the Battle of 300 happened just a couple of years before Christ. So we're talking about the difference between BC and AD. So when I say a couple of years, I'm talking as like 100 to 200 years before Christ. So what you have is in Sparta and with the Knights Templars is they weren't allowed to read. Their entire focus in life was to be a warrior. That was their entire focus. So it's like reading, writing up. You don't need that. You need them to learn how to throw a spear, you need to learn how to wield a sword, you need to learn battle tactics. That was their entire reason for existing.

Speaker 2: 11:51

So I think a lot of people kind of get a little confused with that, where they're like oh no, these were well-read people. No, they couldn't read at all. You know the original Knights Templar. I should say they could not read at all, but then, as they began to progress between 11 and, say, 1300, it got to the point where they could read, where they had copies of the scriptures, where they had documents and stuff like that. Jacques de Molay, before we get into it, jacques de Molay took them back to their original roots before the downfall. So that's just kind of think of, that's the mentality of the person that we're dealing with whenever we talk about these warrior monks.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Another good connection with the Freemasonry of today and the old Knight Templars is, you just said the last Grandmaster of the Orders' name was Jacques de Molay, and we have an order for our Masonic youth we revere in Freemasonry called the Molay International. So another link between modern Freemasonry in the night templars of old. Yeah, now, what we were saying is their main purpose. What they were sanctioned from the church for was obviously to fight in crusade, but also to guard these, uh, pilgrims, and they were traveling from the west to the east.

Speaker 2: 12:57

What why would one leave the west and travel east, chris?

Speaker 1: 13:01

well they were uh, I'm not going to answer that. Uh, I'm not gonna answer that in the way that you want me to, because I am, uh, still a card carrying freebies the next templar could take. They got to the point where they were so well institutionalized that they could take your money, your property, and bring it into their organization, check it in, make an accounting of it, and then they could give you a secret password or a secret handshake only you knew, just you. And then you could travel to the holy land and you wouldn't have to be at risk for all of these things being stolen from you that are so important. And then, when you got there, you could go to the consistory for the templars and pick up your stuff, and all you had to do was give them your secret password or your secret handshake, whatever the case was, and they would know that it was you and that you, you would be given your stuff and it would be unmolested.

Speaker 1: 13:58

And so this is where the idea of banking came from.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Right, I could put my stuff in in a place and they they charged a tax to do this and they basically took all the risk for me, and they almost I'm sure they gave some kind of a guarantee that they would get their stuff when they got to the place they were going, so you could literally just go to an atm.

Speaker 1: 14:18

Essentially it was like the first banking system, and so they made a lot of money doing this, not just on the routes of pilgrims visiting the Temple of Solomon, but also all throughout the modern world at that time England and France, you know everywhere and they became extremely wealthy because church patrons, as they became more famous, started to grant them a lot of lands that were income producing. So they had lands given to them that produced income and they were very good at producing their own sources of income, like this kind of banking. And they grew big enough that they had their own everything. They had their own military, they had their own navy they had built up a pretty they had a massive naval fleet, it was insane because they wanted they.

Speaker 1: 15:07

Obviously one of the challenges of transporting your stuff overseas was pirates and other things like that, so you needed protection, just like it was over land, and they could protect you and your assets in that way, because they had an awesome need always got to cover your assets.

Speaker 2: 15:23

That's a rule of life you know.

Speaker 1: 15:27

so you think about it like these people. Um, it came from a couple of guys to this huge institutional organization, where they had their own architects, they had their own artists, they had their own biblical scholars. They have their own military organization, they have their own biblical scholars, they have their own military organization, they have their own banking arm and financial and Navy fleets. This is a huge organization that was well known to the world at the time and well respected and trusted by everybody at the time. You know, and their purpose. As we, as Freemasons, what we're most interested in is it really we share the common ancestry of Solomon's Temple. The story, the allegory of Freemasonry is the building of King Solomon's Temple at Jerusalem, and all of the three degrees relate to that story and the characters around the building of Solomon's Temple and the Knights Templar's very creation and purpose for existing was also revolving around Solomon's Temple.

Speaker 2: 16:27

Yeah, so essentially what we have, because I do want to get into the symbolism, specifically the mosaic floor, the symbol in the back that has the dot, the circle and the two lines on the outside. There's a lot of symbolism that I really would like to get into, but it needs to be said that what we're going to talk about today is actually highly contested, and so there's some people that are Masonic historians that they think John Robinson was off his rocker, that there's no connection to the Knights Templar whatsoever. There are certain people who think there is a connection between Freemasons and Knights Templar and, to be fair, I'm in that camp. So if you disagree, we want to hear from you. So definitely leave a comment down below. If you have, from a historical perspective, if you have another opinion on John Robinson's work, on the connection between the Knights Templar and the Masons, we want to hear it. So definitely leave a comment below. Let us hear about it.

Speaker 2: 17:17

The thing that I found the most interesting is that with these Knights Templars I mean you've got this is just like a constant back and forth between Christianity and Islam During this time frame between, you know, 11 to around 1300, it was just back and forth, back and forth. So think Kingdom of Heaven, you know, with Orlando Bloom and Liam Neeson Fantastic movie, great movie, no, fantastic. So think something along those lines. This is the era in the time frame that we're dealing with. But what we're also dealing with in this time frame is heavy political corruption, and not only is it political corruption from the crowns plural but you also have political corruption within the church, and so you have popes that are compromised, you know, and they're compromised to the crown, or they're compromised to the Knights Templar, and we're talking about France, right?

Speaker 1: 18:01

now. Yeah, that's where they were headquartered was in france, but they weren't all exclusively france. The knights templars had holds in england and malta and other places around the modern world at the time. So there's a whole like the part where people get a little bit scared to talk about this, because this book doesn't specifically cover this, but dan brown wrote some about this that, oh, they discovered some holy relics that were lost in solomon's temple when they excavated it, and this is how they got so much power and influence, because they had uh, for instance, they may have uncovered the ark of the covenant, or they may have uncovered the Ark of the Covenant, or they may have uncovered documentation that Jesus was married to Magdalene and they had a child together. These are all the things that no one can prove and that's why they don't want to talk about this. Blake loves Knights Templar and Solomon's Temple.

Speaker 2: 19:00

I think my favorite conspiracy theory on what the Knights Templars found whenever they went on their last expedition and then they revolted against the crown was that they found that the they found the Emerald Tablet of Atlantis. This is a conspiracy theory that they found the Emerald Tablet of Atlantis and they found out humanity's origins, that we were actually planted here by the Anunnaki. We're not going to get into the Anunnaki, but it is a fantastic story.

Speaker 1: 19:25

I'd love to do an episode on that, because I'm all about that.

Speaker 2: 19:28

obviously I've done quite a bit of research on it. I'm trying to figure out how we can tie Freemasonry to the Anunnaki. But that is going to send the Baptist ministers ablaze is what it's going to do. We can't officially do it.

Speaker 1: 19:41

They're worshiping space aliens, it's like okay, I mean, this was uh, it's really interesting, you know, when you look at it historically. But we don't know. We don't know what the templars may have or may not have uncovered when they were involved around the temple of solomon. It's it does seem reasonable that they would have recovered things because they spent so much time there and had so much unlimited access, like no one had before, right, and here's, and here's the most frustrating part.

Speaker 2: 20:08

the most frustrating part is any time back in the old world and by old world I'm talking, you know, medieval times and prior any time that you have a nation or a group of people that dominate a neighboring nation or any type of type of anything like that, they would burn the libraries, they would burn all historical records, anything they had. So there is so much about civilization before the 15 and 1600s that we just don't know, and so that kind of leads back to that phrase that I use a lot of. The times is that history is written by the victor. Whoever won, they get to now rewrite history, and every villain is the hero of their own story. There's no person that sets out going, oh well, I'm going to be the bad guy. Unless you're the Joker in Batman, then at that point you want to be the bad guy.

Speaker 1: 20:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:52

So that's kind of what we're dealing with here. So take all of this with a grain of salt. John Robinson's writings, our commentary, every single bit of this. You've got to take this with a grain of salt because there is so much of history that is lost. I would argue the majority of it is now lost to time and fires, unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 21:08

And even our great fraternity is we've been only public for 300 years, a little over 300 years now.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Yeah, and look at what happened during the occupation of Nazi Germany in the 90s A lot of those lodges that Hitler ransacked. They ended up burning a lot of their stuff because they did not want the Nazi regime to get a hold of their records and their stuff. So keep in mind, Hitler was not friendly to Nazis. A lot of people are like oh no, like he joined, you know Freemasonry. No, Hitler was never a Freemason. Hitler bad, let's be clear about this. Hitler bad, Hitler bad, no, likey, yeah, no likey Hitler. So so that. But that's what you have is again. Anytime there's any sort of issues, it's just burned, and so you lose, unfortunately, you learn all those, you lose all those historical records.

Speaker 1: 21:52

People think they know the truth.

Speaker 2: 21:53

You only know what you've been told and what people you respect told you, you only know whatever the winner of that fight wants you to know what survived through time is what you know.

Speaker 1: 22:03

Yep, that's all you know. So we like to think about what could be okay and we have some existing facts and things that exist today that we can point to, that say that's an interesting connection. So, okay, templars, get huge, get big and, as we said, they're part of institutions like the Catholic Church. They also wind up lending money to kings and at the time, of course, if you've ever seen Braveheart, you're aware that England was at war with France because William Wallace fought for freedom from England, from Scotland, and England was also at war with France at the time.

Speaker 2: 22:41

So there was a lot going on which, by the way, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but before I read this book, I legit thought William Wallace was a totally fictional character. And then come to find out no, it was legit. Like yeah, I had no idea.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yeah, totally a hero, for the Scots try to get their independence from England and you know the Freemasons were bankrolling freights in their war with England. And Philip the Fair, who was the king of England, who basically owned the church at the time, because if you wanted to control the people you had to control the church, right, yeah, for sure that was done. So he told his lackey, the cardinal or the pope I can't remember his name, but I'm sure you have it somewhere cardinal who made the papal bull, basically declaring that the Freemasons were enemies of the church that they had committed crimes that they needed to be held account for.

Speaker 2: 23:39

So I knew that came out in around 1307 with Pope Clement V. There it is Pope Clement V, yeah, so you have King Philip IV and Pope Clement V. And again, that was in 1307 when we finally saw that there was essentially the end. Now, keep in mind, before this yes, in 1307 is whenever it was the, you know, friday the 13th they sent out the order for it was actually Friday, october 13th 1307, which was Friday the 13th, right, and so what they say, and that's where the bad omen for Friday the 13th comes from.

Speaker 2: 24:13

So, but what you have is they send out this order, and whenever they send out this order, it is capture all the Knights Templars that you can find, capture or kill all the Knights Templars you can find. And then they went on for months just torturing these guys, and that's where you get a lot of the foul speak about Freemasonry is because a lot of these Knights Templar, they confess to crimes that they didn't actually commit. So they confess to homosexual activity, they confess to spitting on the cross, to worshipping Baphomet, which is weird, because Baphomet really didn't make an appearance until much later. So, again, there were these weird things that they ended up getting these guys to confess to, just based off of methods of torture, which were very creative, by the way.

Speaker 1: 24:52

This was standard operating procedure at the time. If you needed something, you needed somebody to go away. You accused them of heresy and the catholics sent the inquisitors, and after enough torture, you said whatever they wanted you to say, and then they killed because it was basically that the the thought process is you're going to die?

Speaker 2: 25:11

oh, it is your decision on if you die slow or die fast right and we got a comment here in the live stream, sean.

Speaker 2: 25:17

Thank you, brother, sean. After world war, I Forget-Me-Not flower was used as a Masonic emblem in 1948 at the first annual convention of United Grand Lodges of Germany. The badge is now worn in the coat lapel by Freemasons around the world to remember all who suffered in the name of Freemasonry, especially those during the Nazi era. So yeah, and we've actually seen a resurgent of that Forget-Me-Not flower recently. Not going to say why We've seen a resurgent of that forget-me-not flower recently. I'm not going to say why We've seen a resurgence of that same flower and, to be fair, that's the blue flower, right?

Speaker 1: 25:47

The white and blue flower Okay.

Speaker 1: 25:49

Okay. So Philip the Fair has been borrowing so much money from the Templars in his war with England that he decides you know what, I can get the Navy, I can get all the consistories, I can get the all the architecture. These guys have built everything. All I got to do is arrest them. So they make a plan on friday, the 13th in october of 1307, they're going to round up all the templars, they're going to raid them and they're going to haul them in and they're going to excuse them as heresy. Now, you know people, okay, crap always gets out. You have a plan. It leaks, it's always gonna leak, and it leaked.

Speaker 1: 26:24

And not all of the templars were actually captured because word got out, but in france more than in england, because in england it took them several months to actually raid. Since they were at war with england, it took them a lot longer to get in there and actually raid the Templars in England. And in England a lot of the Templars are very close with the king and the king's son at the time was literally learning to fight from Templars. So they had a favorable relationship with the Templars. They didn't view them as badly as they did in France. So a lot of English. I think there were only like a handful of English Templars that were ever brought to Justin. Most of them fled to another country. We know that a lot of them went to Scotland and Malta and other islands and there is a great alleged link between the Navy fleet that was never captured. The Templars Navy fleet was never captured. Where did it go? Do you remember or do you have an idea of where it?

Speaker 2: 27:25

might have gone. I am in the camp Now there's a lot of different thoughts on this. I am in the camp that the Templars ended up sailing across the Big Blue, as it were. They hopped across the pond and we end up seeing their descendants in the pirates between 15 and 1700 in the Caribbean area. Because, especially if you looked at a lot of their rules, you look at a lot of their initiation, their ritual, their battle tactics, everything, their flag yeah, their flag is a big one. You know, what you see is you see a lot of similarities between all of those. And actually I pulled something up on this, if you're okay with me reading it real fast. One of the more interesting theories about pirates concerning their association with the Knights, templar Survivors of the Templar Massacre sailed on 18 Templar ships from France to Scotland in October, on Friday the 13th in 1307. So, yes, something leaked out To the safety of King Robert de Bruce, who had been excommunicated by the Pope, the ships.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Yeah, you know who William de Bruce is right, there you go. That was the guy who was with William Wallace, who wound up finishing his plan to get independence Nice. So that's the.

Speaker 2: 28:37

Robert de Bruce they're talking about. Okay, nice. So the ships, as well as the Templars, were never found In the Masonic Lodges that followed. There is an allusion in the initiation rite of the Master Mason this initiation will make you brother to pirates and corsairs. So this is what we were talking about last time. Is this a recollection of the vanished Templar ships that we speculate turned to piracy to avenge themselves on the Catholic Church and European monarchies who tortured their brothers? The connection becomes more plausible if we remember that one of the symbols associated with the master mason's degree is the skull and crossbones on a black background.

Speaker 2: 29:16

The Jolly Roger should be familiar to every schoolchild. The plot thickens just enough to make listening to pirate tales an enjoyable way to spend a lazy October afternoon. Bartholomew's articles no women allowed on board. Any man caught stealing shall be marooned. All pistols and cutlasses will be kept clean. All important decisions to be put to a vote. All cruise quarters will be settled on shore. Sorry, cruise quarrels will be settled on shore. Injuries to be compensated Any man who loses a limb in battle shall receive extra booty. Hey, keep that booty. He said. Receive extra. The captain and quartermaster to receive two shares of the booty the master gunner and boat swain one and a half shares. Other officers one and a quarter shares. Other officers one and a quarter shares. All others one share each. Any man who deserts ship in battle shall be put to death.

Speaker 1: 30:08

So they had a code of honor, they had a code of honor, and it makes sense, if you think about it, that the descendants of this military organization that were well-organized, well-trained and very spiritual would have an axe to grind with those people.

Speaker 2: 30:23

I mean it makes sense to be honest with you. And here's the unfortunate thing. So I've been through the York Rite, so I know about the skull and the crossbones. Now I think you wrote legislation on the room of reflection. I never went through a room of reflection. Does it have that in there? I mean it's not Masonic ritual anymore, so we can talk about it Both.

Speaker 1: 30:42

the York Rite and the Scottish Rite have rooms of reflection as part of various degrees. It's just they removed it from Freemasonry prop in America. So we did. I did an interview with a past master of my lodge, worshipful Garcia, who's from Puerto Rico, and it is still part of their ritual. Nice, they take them into ideally an underground room that looks like a cave and they reflect in front of a mirror with a stone across the bones as well as other symbols. It's a whole procedure that's meant to make you reflect on your mortality and your place in the human race before you become an interdependent. It's a really beautiful ceremony.

Speaker 2: 31:26

I could see doing that for before the master Mason degree. But from an interdependent degree perspective, yeah, that would kind of freak me out a little bit, like for me it would be cool, because I'm into that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Well, you need to write down, for example is there anyone on this planet that you have issue with? Yes, that if you were to die, you would feel like I wish I had settled that. You should probably settle that before you join the fraternity.

Speaker 2: 31:52

Do you want it alphabetically or chronologically?

Speaker 1: 31:55

That's like one of the things that is handled in the. It makes you reflect on your life. Where are you at? Am I ready to receive this? Am I really ready to become a Freemason? And you need to do it before you're an entered apprentice, I think, Because once you're an entered apprentice, you're a Freemason.

Speaker 2: 32:10

You are a Freemason but there's so much still hidden from you. That's why I'm suggesting putting it before the Master Mason degree is because whenever you're an entered apprentice you don't know what you're getting into. I mean, you know you kind of get a rough idea and if you've done a little bit of research on it you know you probably have a little bit better of an idea. But there's just so much in the degrees. That is just. You know it's not talked about. Obviously it's not talked about. You're not warned about anything.

Speaker 2: 32:45

No, I went to the york right festival in tampa and so it was so funny because, as I'm doing it, like the old guys who were there are trying to freak me out a little bit. So like there was one guy he like bumped a table and knocked a pencil off the table and and I was, you know, I went to go reach down and grab it for him and he was like wait a second, you're one of the initiates today, aren't you? And I said yeah, and he goes, you mind grabbing that pencil for me? I want to see how well you bend over. I'm like I will beat you with that cane you're carrying. So they try to get in your head. But, brothers, if you're, if you're looking at going down the york right scottite, or even if you're like an EA or a fellow craft, I want to be very, very clear about this. There is nothing weird that happens in those rituals.

Speaker 1: 33:26

You're going to get the old guys that like to get a laugh out of you, but that's about it and, to be honest with you, the fact that they do any kind of hazing or horseplay is really against what the fraternity teaches us and how to treat candidates, because candidates should understand that what they're about to go through is a very solemn kind of a uh is we are supposed to treat this with the utmost respect and to impress upon the person that what you're going to experience should be life-changing.

Speaker 1: 33:58

And you know what often happens because we do so many degrees like the reality is we are just trying to have fun with our friends or putting on degrees, and you do make jokes, you make light of things. It really isn't how it's supposed to be, and so I would encourage you, if you are a ritualist involved in doing degrees in freemasonry, remember that this is the only time this person's ever going to get this degree, and it starts the moment they walk in the building. How you act, how you talk to them, how you look, how you carry yourself All that stuff will have an impact on their day. Take a minute and try to be a little more serious about it for the brothers that you bring, which even still I mean that's a fantastic point is I have not.

Speaker 2: 34:39

you know, for example, I think it was last weekend we did an inner apprentice degree where we initiated five brothers over at Lakeland Lodge 91. It was, it was fantastic. So yeah, of course I made a little smart aleck joke as I walked by him right before the degree started. I said, ah, the victims, you know, just kind of goofing around.

Speaker 1: 34:55

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:56

You know. But at the same time I came back by before they ever came into the room and I said guys, I want to be very clear about this, because this is what was told to me. I want to be very clear about this there's nothing in here that's going to hurt you, nothing is going to be asked of you that will compromise anything that you hold sacred or value. And all of us have been through this and all of us are still walking normally. So there's nothing weird that's going to happen in here. And here's the best way I can describe it to the profane. But what the profane needs to know is essentially what the degrees are, and it doesn't matter if it's in the three degrees of Freemasonry, so it's okay.

Speaker 2: 35:40

What is this moral lesson? So, for example, when I went in the York Rite, there was a chamber of reflection in the York Rite. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. You're there, you read a passage of scripture and you now have to reflect on your life and it really kind of helps you retool and rethink, kind of, what you're doing, how you're looking at these things, how you're doing how you're looking at these things, how you're looking at these lessons.

Speaker 1: 36:07

That's what needs to happen during these degrees, not the gentle hazing that some of the people do. It's true, and I think it's good that you do that, because you know people hear a lot of weird things about this fraternity. I remember being I had a lot of anxiety beforehand because I didn't know what to expect. The not knowing does cause a lot of anxiety, so it is a relief for someone to say don't worry, no one's going to hurt you or embarrass you like that. That helps a lot, I think, and I was told the same thing. I was told hey, listen, you're going to be put in a situation where some of your senses are going to be removed from you and the intent isn't to scare you, it's to make you aware with your other senses. So if you can only hear, then listen. If you can only feel, then try to focus on the touch, Like focus on the senses that you have.

Speaker 2: 36:51

That's why it's meant this way, but don't touch too much, because then that's going to lead to a harassment case and you don't want to catch those.

Speaker 1: 36:58

We just got joined on the live stream. We have someone from Venice Lodge named Sean, and we have someone from Marathon Lodge named Roger Hall.

Speaker 2: 37:06

Roger Hall, I was at your lodge yesterday. I literally took a picture right out front of your lodge, so I'll text it over to you. Really, yeah, so I did a whirlwind trip to the Keys. I was there for less than 24 hours. Come on, roger, thoroughly, because God knows when he's done to us. Check the cameras, and I like the kayaks you have behind the place.

Speaker 1: 37:25

Kayaks oh well, they're by the ocean. Yeah, so we're here talking about Freemasonry and Knights Templars. You know the process of being accused by a king and the pope isn't a fun one. Back in the day. You are going to be tortured. You want to see the worst in humanity? Go look at how they tortured people.

Speaker 2: 37:45

No, and honestly we need to discuss it was not good and they were so good at it. And by so good at it I mean they had perfected the art of torture. So you got to keep in mind, even if you consider back and you consider the story of the crucifixion, so the story of the crucifixion, so the story of the crucifixion is they were only going to hit you with the cat of nine tails a certain number of times because they knew that next one would kill you. That's how good they got at this torture. So fast forward to the Catholic Church, to essentially what I would consider a militant and apostate Catholic Church.

Speaker 2: 38:15

What they were doing at that point is, for example, the bishops and the friars and all these different people point is, for example, the bishops and the friars and all these different people they were forbidden from spilling blood. So what they would do is they would take a device and they put it on your thumb and there's screws on both sides of this device and they would put it on your shins, they'd put it on your legs. So what they would do is they would ask you a question confess, right. And then they would tighten it down a little bit more. Confess, tighten it down a little bit more. It got to the point where they would shatter your um, they would shatter your shin bone, they would shatter your thumbs, your fingers, everything, because they were not allowed to spill blood. So if I just break bones, then I'm not spilling blood.

Speaker 1: 38:51

Talk about some legalistic perspective, my goodness this is where the rat comes in all the stuff they could do to torture you, and all you had to do to make the pain stop was say, okay, I said that bad thing about God.

Speaker 2: 39:06

Okay, I kissed and I spit on the cross, or whatever the case might be.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Yeah, I worshipped a severed head. Whatever you want me to say to make this pain stop. And then you're, you know, go ahead, you can kill him and that was your thank you. So that could go on for years. This wasn't like a weekend thing. You could get tortured for years and live in a dungeon.

Speaker 2: 39:28

No, and the torture method that I honestly spoke I shouldn't say spoke the most to me, because that seems like I was inspired the torture method that I thought was the most egregious is what they would do is they would take different people and they would set them in the jail cell.

Speaker 2: 39:44

So if you think back, like the scene of Aladdin, where, like a guy sitting on the ground and his arms are up in the chains, like this so essentially that's what they would do so you'd be sitting there for weeks, months, and, like your arms are elevated above your head, you can't stand up because they have you chained down but your hands are elevated above your head, losing circulation to your hands. The ones that they felt like were the most rebellious or you could not break their spirit. They would put them inside a drain in the middle of the prison cell. This is in the book. They would put them in a drain inside a prison cell and so anytime the rain would come in, anytime any of the other guys in there had to use the bathroom, weren't allowed to actually go use the latrine, as it were, or the bucket in the corner. No, they had to soil themselves. So all of that would wash down into the drain, and the drain was just big enough to put a person in there dusty yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:34

So what they would do is they would have a person down in there who would be the most difficult to break. Either they were rebellious or they were just considering it.

Speaker 1: 40:41

Pure joy that they were doing this.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Yeah, so what they would do is they'd sit him in there, and so this person would be chest deep just in human filth. It's gross, right.

Speaker 1: 40:50

It's gross.

Speaker 2: 40:51

That's gross, but honestly that's what they would do and they would leave you in there. So think about it. You're getting so many diseases at that point from open wounds being exposed to filth. So just even from a medical perspective, it's absolutely terrible what these guys went through. So, yeah, no wonder some of them confessed to lies, because they just wanted it to end quickly.

Speaker 1: 41:09

You just want to die yeah just, please, just, kill me. I just want this to end. That's, that's all you want. And like they got good at this, they knew how to evoke that response. So, yeah, you would confess. So now in our history we're taught knights, templars, were evil, that they worshiped the baphomet, that they spit on the cross, that they they were working against the church. Like you believe these things because that's what they admitted to when they were tortured for years, and this was not unstandard. This is how most people were handled. If they wanted to take you out, they accused you of heresy and you went through this process. It was pretty normal. So where did the Templars go that didn't get caught? The naval fleet sure could have gone to the Caribbean, maybe a couple generations past, and that's where the Pirates of the Caribbean came from.

Speaker 1: 41:58

Maybe they went to Oak Island near Nova Scotia and one place that we 100% know that a lot of them from England went to was Scotland, and you just talked about Robert the Bruce taking them. There are degrees in the Scottish Rite that talk about the formation of a new body that included Knight, templars and Freemasonry, called the Knight of St Andrews. The Knight of St Andrews was led by Robert the Bruce in Scotland, so this is a romantic tradition that Freemasonry's have and still tell in their degrees today and in history. If you saw the movie Braveheart, one of the biggest questions they had was how did this ragtag group of Scottish people with no armor, no official training, beat the largest army the world had at the time? And one possible answer is they were already. What is it when the church says you're bad? And they just knew.

Speaker 2: 42:51

You're excommunicated.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Excommunicated, excommunicado. They were already excommunicated from the church because they were fighting against England. So for them to house the nine Templars would have made a lot of sense. They were already excommunicated from the church. If they brought these Templars would have made a lot of sense. They were already excommunicated from the church. If they brought these Templars in and they made some agreement with them that you can stay here and live amongst us if you're willing to help us fight this war, it starts to make sense how this ragtag group of nobodies beats the largest army in the world at the time because they had highly trained soldiers with them.

Speaker 2: 43:23

And, by the way, that's not the only time that the largest military presence on the face of the planet was ever beaten by an unsuspecting group of people due to Masonic interference. So if you look at the 1776, you look at the Revolutionary War, there was a lot of Masonic interference. Even if you look at World War II, there was a lot of Masonic interference. Of the Civil War, there was Masonicasonic interference. So it seems like there's been this consistency that freemasons as a whole and, by extension, knights templar, are basically fighting for the freedom of people. That's essentially what they're, what they're trying to to go for. They wanted that. They wanted the knowledge to be out there. They wanted everybody to have a written copy of the bible. So that way, the central authority wasn't just the church, no, it was the individual as well this is a you.

Speaker 1: 44:07

You see a lot of those things alive in. Like the way our own government was formed. We clearly were a group of people that worshipped God. We didn't institutionalize the faith, but we made it starts out with one nation under God, come on Like. They obviously believe in God, and the Templars would have continued their faith in God as well, but they would have lost their faith in the institutions that persecuted them. So this is where Freemasonry comes into the picture. Another common thing that we talked about in our debate is why these crazy obligations and penalties and a fraternity of gentlemen? Why would you do that? Why the secrecy? Why are you blindfolded as part of your initiation? Why would that? Even?

Speaker 2: 44:49

be necessary. I love those questions. I especially love them from the church. Those who were in the church. They were like, oh my goodness, and I'm like look the obligations that we take now and the way that we do our ritual. They're more tradition-based than they are anything, and we covered that on the last podcast where we talked about the top 10 issues these things are. You cannot find historical record of any person being penalized in the way the Masonic obligations lay out, and there's a lot of them. There is a whole bunch of them. So, as your all this, comment.

Speaker 1: 45:16

they always find it interesting. Our oath is to form the government, Yet our forefathers were rebels everywhere.

Speaker 2: 45:22

Roger, I am right there with you. So that is one thing that I thought was hilarious when I filled out. My EA petition is like do you plan on overthrowing the government? And I'm like I mean, now that you mention it, it's a pretty, sounds like a pretty good idea, but keep in mind like our Masonic forefathers were dedicated to overthrowing governments.

Speaker 1: 45:42

It's like you're asking me to go against the roots, my guy I mean okay, so they were like you said throughout time, and we're going to get into the peasants revolt, which is another instance of potential manipulation with the people and the politicians and the governments. They're always for the people, not for the government. They're not bought and paid for representatives of the government. They're always about freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom to live your life the way you want to live your life. So you know our government trying to get freedom from a tyrannical king.

Speaker 1: 46:11

I can see that being a good thing and I think the government that they tried to set up in its place is, to this point in the recorded history of the human species, the best shot we've ever taken at government.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Government of the people by the people, for the people, people based on faith in god, is pretty good damn setup, if you ask me. Yeah, I'm not mad at it and, of course, from its inception, corruption started and where we are today is far from where we started. So you know, I think the freemasons, if they were around, that the templars were around today, they'd be looking at our government and saying is this a tyrannical government? And that's a whole nother podcast that we can get into, but the Templars couldn't have escaped to Scotland. They could have formed lodges, they would have had families. At this point they would have started to become normal people, and if you knew who they were and you could rat them out to the French king or the church, that would take not just their life but their children's life and their wife's life, and everything would be wiped away.

Speaker 2: 47:11

It was your entire bloodline gets wiped off the planet.

Speaker 1: 47:14

It would be very important that if you bring a new person into your organization, they don't know who the hell you are until after they've taken an obligation to keep your true identity safe and secret.

Speaker 2: 47:26

Well, and keep in mind, after the 1307, you know ordeal that the Knights Templar and the Freemasons went through, what you had is their recruiting efforts changed, and I think their recruiting efforts back then should be a little bit more. We should be doing something similar today is what I'm getting at. So what they would do is they would take you out, like for drinks. You know they'd take you to the pub or they'd take you to go grab a bite to eat or hang out with families, come to family events, absolutely would want to know the character. Yeah, so so you want to, because at this point, you got to keep in mind, you got to keep this secret, not because, oh, it's just cool that we keep secrets, like, no, that's not it. No, you have to keep this secret because my family is going to die. So they would like a year, two years, to hang out with you, spend time with you, get to know you, and then, if they believed you would be good for that order, they would then bring in another person unknowingly. Hey, by the way, let's go out and grab some drinks at the pub this weekend. I'm going to invite my buddy, my buddy, joe, right, joe's going to come out here and he's going to have some drinks with us, but Joe also happened to be a templar slash freemason.

Speaker 2: 48:26

And so then you're being investigated without ever knowing that you're being investigated and you're being asked questions amongst friends, in a private setting. Hey, what are your thoughts on this, your thoughts on that? And then, finally, after many times of hanging out with these people, getting to know them, your kids are probably calling them uncle bob or something like that. What, at that point, what you're asked is hey, do you want to join our order? And then it's exposed that, oh yeah, by the way, these guys are Freemasons, they're Knights, templars, and they think that I'm a good fit for their order. So again, it's kind of changed because there are certain lodges today I was part of a lodge that anybody who walked through the front door is automatically given. It's like no, they had to be a lot more secretive, because it literally was my family's going to be killed if you reveal this information, if you can buy into that idea.

Speaker 1: 49:11

Then things start to make a lot more sense. Why? Blindfold makes a lot of sense, and you know, you don't know who's in the room until after you've obligated yourself to keep secret who these people might be. Also, the penalties start to make a lot more sense. Let's make the penalty something scary, so you understand. Hey, I better think twice before I say yes to this.

Speaker 2: 49:33

So the penalty for the Master Mason degree I'm going to go ahead and spill it right now is that we tickle your feet with feathers until you can't handle it or you wet yourself. That's what we do in the Master Mason degree man. He's chunky, he's chunky, but in the master mason degree man it's junky, it's junky. But essentially, again, what these guys would do is again, they would get to know you. And what better way to get to know everybody than with a premium three ruffian cigar? That's right. Today's episode is sponsored by the three ruffian cigars. The three, the three ruffians is a masonic brand of cigars founded by our esteemed uh show host here, chris burns, uh sean and there's a John Schaefer. Okay, I'm going to get better at these live reads.

Speaker 2: 50:11

Yes, so it started out of Sarasota Lodge 147 with the purpose being to help Masonic Lodges and dependent bodies. Grab your three ruffian cigar I had one while I was in the Keys. The barber pole's fantastic and also for the three ruffian cigarsars. I'm also going to be buying some for our officer line. Uh, jo, ja and ju, I think they are right. I'm gonna be buying some for our officer line, and there's about five people that got that joke right there. So go over to three ruffianscom and you can pick up your premium cigars today and now back to the show.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Great word for our sponsor. Yeah, yeah, I feel a little guilty letting you read that on the air, but I am a true Russian. As you can see, I'm an outlaw here. Yes, according to you, sir. So Robinson, who's the author here, proposes a surprising connection between the secretive remnants of the Templars and the Peasants' Revolt in 1381 in England, the revolt, which is a large-scale uprising against oppressive taxation. If with the revolt, which is a large-scale uprising against oppressive taxation, found familiar and its feudal rule was supposedly too organized to be a spontaneous event, robinson argues that it was orchestrated by a hidden group, possibly former Templars, who sought revenge against the institutions that had betrayed them. He examines coded messages and hidden influences in historical records that suggest the rebellion was actually driven by more than just economic grievances. This idea, though controversial, raises questions about how secret societies may have played roles in major historical events.

Speaker 2: 51:36

So what I always thought was interesting is, close to the downfall of the Knights Templars what you have in the late 1200s, early 1300s, you have Jacques de Molay becomes the head of the Knights Templar and he's trying to restore it to its origin. So you have an institution Tell me if this sounds familiar you have an institution that has drifted so far from its original intention that now it looks nothing like what it was 200 years ago. So you have John or sorry, not John Robinson you have Jacques de Molay, who wants his soldiers to get back to being people that can't read. The only ones that could read, or read the scriptures or any communication, write any communication were the scribes, which, by the way, those are ones with the black cross. So if you ever see any historical documents or pictures that are done accurately, the Knights of Malta were the ones with the. I think it was. The Knights of malta were the black cross and so they were the ones who were the scribes, so they could read the scriptures, they could read communication, but no, he wanted the soldiers. You no longer have a written copy of the scriptures. You no longer have books. The only thing you have is like a sheet to lay on, because that's what you should be. You should be this poor warrior, essentially, and that's what your whole life should be. Should be this poor warrior essentially, and that's what your whole life should be about.

Speaker 2: 52:48

What Jacques de Molay wanted is he wanted to do another crusade. And so whenever he goes and meets with the Pope and he ends up telling the Pope and the King to their face and he's like no, as the Knights Templars, the only one we answer to is to the Pope, because we are part of that organization, and King Philip of France had a huge problem with that. He's like, no, you work for me. And they're like, no, sorry, no, we don't. So that's kind of what's setting the stage for this. And then you have King Philip IV and then Pope Clement end up having this closed door meeting. It's just the two of them, no one has said in that meeting. But when they come out of that meeting, magically, pope Clement says oh no, they're all heretics.

Speaker 2: 53:27

We need to put them all to death, his guys his guys, the people that he has been the patron of, are now the bad guys and he has to prosecute them and that and that doesn't negate, by the way, that there was another organization that was for about 100 years there there was another conflict within the Catholic church the hospitalers. And so you have these hospitalers that the Pope yeah, the Pope essentially wanted to set them up like the new Knights Templars. He knew that they were gaining way too much wealth. They were saying the Knights Templars were saying no, we've acquired this wealth, we've ran this organization smartly, so we're doing very well from a military perspective, from a financial perspective land ships, you name it, we've got it.

Speaker 2: 54:05

And the Catholic Church is saying that's ours. Templars are saying, no, it's not, it's ours. So there was this big conflict between this new division that was started, the Hospitallers and whenever the Knights Templars were put to death in 1307 and they were disbanded, all the goods that belonged to the Knights Templars, if the church could get its hands on it, it then handed it over not only to the church but to the hospitalers as well. So they ended up inheriting a whole bunch of that wealth.

Speaker 1: 54:32

And you mentioned a couple times now, jacques de Molay. The reason that his name is known the way that it's known is yes, he was the last Grand Master of the Order. He did confess, like most Templars did. However, at the end he recanted his confession and he said I cannot lie for my brothers who have died. Everything that you're accusing us of is a lie. We would never turn our back to God, we would never spit on the cross, we would never do these things you've accused us of. You know you could take my life, but you will not let me die without my integrity. And he was burned alive at the stake.

Speaker 2: 55:08

You will never take our freedom.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Yeah, great line from Braveheart. And you know, if you go now, I went to France with my wife and you can go on the river scene and there's a little park and there's a plaque on the wall that this is the site where Chakri Malawi burned and they have a public park in his name, a little public park where Jacques de Molay would burn. And they have a public park in his name, a little public park. You can sit and look at the flowers and just imagine this grandmaster being burned alive with everybody watching right. Everybody came to see it, so it was a big spectacle.

Speaker 2: 55:35

So, and to be clear, excuse me, de Molay was burned at the stake in 1314. So the order went out in 1307. And so for seven years, this guy was tortured. For seven years, this guy was tortured for seven years straight before he was finally killed. The thing that I thought was really cool and apparently this is widely contested is the curse of Jacques de Molay.

Speaker 1: 55:53

Are you familiar with this? Yes, so, if I remember correctly, he was a pope or a king, both, and I will see you both within a year's time, and they both died in less than a year. Yep, essentially right.

Speaker 2: 56:06

Yep time, and they both died in less than a year. Yep, essentially right, yep. So he, uh, he called on the name of christ to prove his innocence. The templars, you know, as they were being having judgment brought against them. But yeah, the curse was, is that, uh, pope clement and king philip would both die within a year if they convicted the knights templar of false crimes? Uh, and sure enough, they both died within a year. So sucks to sucks to suck nerds.

Speaker 1: 56:27

That is, uh, that's you know, I guess it's really hard to prove that, that they died because of the curse. But it's a nice thought, but it is interesting. It is interesting. I believe in that stuff. We all have a list of who we want to curse, right.

Speaker 2: 56:41

I mean, come on, no, actually I'm pretty chill with everybody, Not necessarily curse, because then that kind of takes the justice out of my hands and puts it in the Almighty's. But you know what? The Lord put certain people on this planet for certain reasons. Yeah, it's a good way to look at it. So let's get back to some of the symbology Now. The symbology that I think is super interesting.

Speaker 2: 56:58

Now, again, everything that we're talking about here is what is printed in this book. So we are not giving away anything due to our obligation. I want to be very, very clear about that, especially in these times. So, having said that, one of the things that is talked about repeatedly is the square encompasses. Now, it needs to be noted that during this timeframe now we're talking 12, 1300 was illegal for a person to have a written copy of the scriptures.

Speaker 2: 57:21

Yet the Knights Templar likes to take their obligation on the Holy Bible. So it's not bringing a blood oath down upon your head. It's saying no, I am making this promise to the fellow men that are standing here around me and I want God as my witness that I am sitting here doing this. So I think we need to talk about the difference between an oath and an obligation. At some point we need to have that conversation of OK, it's not exactly what the people are saying today that it was, but here we have these guys, the Knights Templar. They like to take their obligations on the Holy Scriptures. Awesome, I'm all for that. So people can't have a written copy of the Scriptures, right, According to the Catholic Church? No, nobody can have that.

Speaker 1: 57:58

This was prior to what was his name? Oh, clement. No, the guy who wanted to.

Speaker 2: 58:05

It's not King James who was the guy. I'll find it. Yeah, we'll find it eventually. So what you end up having is okay, you can no longer have a copy of the scriptures. So what did they use as a symbol of the scriptures? Well, they ended up using the square and compasses. Whenever the crown and the church got wise to that, oh man, they're using the square and compasses. Oh man, they're using the square and compasses.

Speaker 2: 58:26

Then it was all right, we're searching everything you guys have for an iteration of the square and compasses or the Holy Scriptures or any sort of ritual symbology that they would have, for example, the mosaic floor, the mosaic floor in Freemasonry. We talk about the fact that you walk across the mosaic floor. You're walking through life, you're going to have periods of light and darkness in there, but you have to weather both in order to make it through. What the Templars would do is they would have the same mosaic floor, but it would only be the two tiles, so it would be the black and the white, and so you were coming from the black or the darkness of being profane or being outside of the Knights, templar order or warrior for Christ, whatever title you want to give it and you're coming into the light of christ and service of christ, and so that was kind of their whole thing. So some people say that's where we get our mosaic floor from cool, I'm not opposed to that ideology. But then there's another symbol also they wore white and black outfits.

Speaker 1: 59:19

Right, yeah, that's yeah colors that they've worn to battle.

Speaker 2: 59:22

But then. But then there's another symbol, and this symbol, I think, is I think it's a super cool idea, concept. I'm not opposed to the ideology, but the symbol that we have in the back of all of our lodges is the dot, the circle and the two lines. So we have that. We describe that as the person, the lodge, and then the St John, so plural. So that's how we talk about it in Freemasonry today.

Speaker 2: 59:45

But back then, what they suggested in this book and again, I'm not opposed to the ideology is that that was a way to hide the square and compasses, which was representative of the scriptures, because you couldn't have either one, you'd be put to death on the spot for it. So what a person would do is they'd send a low-level guy out to the woods and they'd say hey, we're going to hold a ritual at this place out in the woods. He would take two sticks of equivalent lengths, put it in the middle and he would draw a circle there's your, there's your compasses, okay. And then he would take the two lines and set the or the two sticks and he would set them to the side. That's your square. That symbol, according to this book, is representative of the square and compasses and it is representative of the holy scriptures, and I've loved that description ever since I've heard it yeah, I like that too.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

There's so much in symbolism that's a genius way to communicate ideas, because it can have layers. It can have a meaning that is absolutely true, and have a deeper meaning that is not exactly the same but is also totally true, and so you can provide hidden teachings through symbolism, and I really think freemasonry does that in such a fantastic way. I really feel like the entire sum of all human knowledge is embedded in symbolism, in the fraternity, and we are taught nothing but the most surface layer as we go through the degrees and get the lectures. And I think your life is meant to spend unraveling the deeper meanings of all this stuff, and that's what I've been trying to do ever since I've been a Freemason, and I think a lot of.

Speaker 1: 1:01:11

I tend to surround myself with people like that because we have a lot of fun asking questions about it and exploring historically what these things mean, like that circle within the point within a circle, the two lines, the circumponse is one of the oldest symbols that men have used in all cultures, a circle with a dot in it and you mentioned the Emerald Tablet. You know hidden teachings, things that are the staff of Trismegistus, this. You know who's in the he, this Hermes. In some cultures this is Enoch, in the Christian theology Hermes Trismegistus, in others it's the same knowledge, just kind of clothed in different front-facing veneers, but it means the same thing to everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

Well, even still, that staff of Hermes that you talked about, that's I mean gosh. That's been repeated throughout, that's even in the scriptures. That's what.

Speaker 1: 1:02:02

I'm saying I believe the Enoch, the book of Enoch, is really Hermes, Trismegistus teachings, and you know that staff of Trismegistus and the serpents is used today in symbology. You look on an ambulance and you've got this Hermes staff, which is a staff of knowledge, right In healing and it's really two serpents entwining a staff. So serpents weren't always meant to be these evil things. They were bringers of knowledge.

Speaker 2: 1:02:28

Well, I mean, unless you ask a female at the early iteration of the world, then it's like no, I'm never talking to that snake again.

Speaker 1: 1:02:36

Amy Eve.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

She messed it up for all of us, which even still the lore in the Christian way of looking at things, is that that staff I think there were, and I've been sitting here trying to find the actual passage of it and I'm probably going to butcher the story, brothers. I apologize to our Christian brothers out there, but essentially what had happened is that as Israel was traveling throughout the wilderness, a bunch of snakes ended up showing up and biting a whole bunch of people. So what God had them do was take the staff, put two of the snakes on there and anybody who looked upon that staff was then cured of the poison. But that whenever you talk about the staff of Tri-Mest, tri-megistus yeah, that guy. So whenever you talk about that. That's why we see those symbols on the side of ambulances, you know. We see them at hospitals, you know, because it's meant to be a symbol for healing is what it's meant to be.

Speaker 1: 1:03:24

And it is a symbol for healing even today, which is insane, because if anyone said, hey, we're going to put a stick with two snakes around it, you'd be like, oh.

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

I don't want that. I'm never going to that church again.

Speaker 1: 1:03:35

That sounds bad, but there are churches that handle snakes, so obviously they're seen in a positive light.

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

Are they, though? So, yeah, so what you have? I mean, you have this fantastic story, and, brothers, I would highly encourage you to pick up the book, read the book, but what you have is this fantastic book that really starts to tie together the Knights, templars, the pirates in the Caribbean and ties it all into Freemasonry. So, again, I'm in this camp. This is again a highly contested topic of is he being serious or is this guy completely off his rocker? That is up to interpretation. It's up to whatever you want to call it. It is up to you as an individual. But again, that's what we're supposed to be doing in Freemasonry. I mean, there's a whole reason as to why, whenever we talk about Freemasonry is no, I showed you the door. It's your job to knock on that door. It's your job to seek out this knowledge.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

So don't let your Masonic education end with the Master Mason degree and just whatever Masonic education they cover at the second meeting of the month. Don't let it stop there. Keep, keep building on it, keep growing it, because, at the end of the day, it's going to help you. It's going to reshape how you think of the world, how you think of history, how you think of even even just the history of our current country, you know, and where it all came from, who's all as a part of it. What are these symbols mean? Why do we have the all-seeing eye on the back of the pyramid, on the back of a dollar bill? Why do we have these Latin phrases, some of the Latin phrases that we have? So it's going to cause you to ask a lot more questions, which is what you want.

Speaker 1: 1:04:58

You're going to be angry. You're going to see how far we've come from the intention of the original plan.

Speaker 2: 1:05:04

Well, and we talked about that in our last episode, which hasn't aired yet, but we covered the fourth turning, and so what you have is you're going to have the people that are asking these types of questions, very similar to Jacques de Molay Whenever he looked at the current state of the Knights Templars, and he's like this is nothing like what we started as, and so you're also going to have some of that where a new generation is going to come in. They're not going to like or agree with the way things are set up, so they're going to pull it back to its roots, and I really do think we're on the cusp of that. I think I'll see that in my lifetime, which I'm really looking forward to, of being able to pull back some of these teachings. So here's where I split from traditional church teachings. Traditional church teachings is whenever a preacher or a pastor gets up and they talk about the church. They're talking about either their specific building or their specific denomination.

Speaker 2: 1:05:52

I am of the opinion that denominations are the greatest work that Satan could have ever done, because you can very easily divide up the opponent you know your opponent over something stupid, but of course, that concept is not just, it's not just for church. You see it in government, you see it in masonry, you see it absolutely everywhere. So what I'm of the opinion of is that your institution should be as close to its core beliefs as it possibly should, and if it comes time for persecution, you should proudly stick your neck out and say, yeah, I'm now standing on these principles, that's right. Yeah, I'm also standing in defense of the fellow people inside this institution. So that's what soldiers do whenever they swear to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They don't care. They're going to stick their neck out because I love this country and I'm going to give my life for this country. If that organization means that much to you, that should be an easy ask. It is In my opinion.

Speaker 1: 1:06:41

it absolutely is. And, Dr Malay, you said his name like 10 times today. How many hundreds of years after his death, do you know his name? After his death, you know his name. You have organizations named after the man. It's not because he was one of the hundreds that said, yeah, we did it, or yeah, he did it, or gave a name and got off easy. He's remembered because he stood up for what was right and he lived the ideals of the organization he was representing. That's why he's remembered in the ages.

Speaker 2: 1:07:06

Well, and it's the same way. It's the same thing with George Washington. It's the same thing with Abraham Lincoln. It's the same way with, you know, Churchill and Truman. It's the exact same thing the men who stand up for what is right and they stand firm against everything. And there's no. I am not budging from this spot. History remembers that person favorably.

Speaker 1: 1:07:30

OK, those who cower typically are not remembered at all. So, hey, if you're a member of this fraternity, hopefully you're not in it for the title. You just want to get like adoration, you want to get a position like that's not a reason to be a part of this fraternity. You should be in this fraternity because you want to improve yourself as a man, as a citizen, as a husband, as a father. You want to have a positive impact on other people's lives and learn how to do it with devotion to God. That's what being a member of this fraternity is supposed to be about, and some of us still fight for those ideals. Learn to be better men. Yeah, and it was the same for Jacques de Molay. He was being persecuted in a corrupt, totally corrupt government and religious organization that he served and he saw he ordered you know, people to fight for it. He had to stand up to them and say this is wrong, you're wrong, and even still as members of a organization.

Speaker 2: 1:08:23

You can't deny at all that during this time frame, in the 13, 14, 15, there were people who were going to stand on the right thing, no matter what the size of that institution was. So, for example, if you fast forward, I think closer to the 1516, you have Martin Luther who stapled the 95 thesis on the front of the churches. So, and regardless of what you think about Martin Luther, like I disagree with like one or two points of his doctrine, but that's about it. But either way, Martin Luther, at the end of the day, he stood on what he believed to be right. But either way, martin Luther, at the end of the day, he stood on what he believed to be right. And so, again, I think you're only going to see more of that as time progresses. You're going to see people standing on what they believe to be right.

Speaker 2: 1:08:57

I'm not budging from this spot. It's not just this laissez-faire, okay, I really don't care so much anymore. Like, as long as you know, everybody can just do whatever they want to do. It's not getting to that point, only progressing in a more aggressive manner of, and even still, like gen z and young millennials are number one in that line. If they are like no, I've talked to you this, about this before where they're really kind of joined this deus volt movement, which is latin for god wills it. So they're kind of standing on this movement of no, I'm going to stand up for what is right. I believe we, as freemasons, should also be doing this stand up up for what is right, because, I hate to say it, but any institution that you have, any institution, is prone to politics.

Speaker 2: 1:09:36

They are the church is prone to politics. The lodge, the church, they're all prone to politics. And so you're going to get these people that they just want to go in there and play the political game. I have zero time for the political game. It's what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong.

Speaker 1: 1:09:51

You know, you have to be educated in what's right and wrong, at some point to understand what's right and wrong. And that goes back to what you and I were talking about before we started recording. Teach your children critical thinking, yes. Teach them the question what you say. Teach them the question what everybody says. Test it against their morals. And if you can test what someone tells you against your morals and it seems right, it's probably right If what they're telling you doesn't follow your moral system that you were raised with.

Speaker 1: 1:10:18

And I'm saying like, let's all teach our children that you know the same thing that Freemasonry teaches we're all equal under God, we have the same almighty parents and we're all locked on this planet together, traveling through space forever. And why should my dirt be different than your dirt? Why can't we aid, support and protect each other.

Speaker 2: 1:10:38

The problem is is you have an entitlement class where they believe that some people are more equal than others, which in itself is an issue, and so I got into a debate with somebody. It's in the Constitution that all men are created equal, but what about the women, chris? Did you just leave out the women? You sexist?

Speaker 1: 1:10:53

you. I think what the intention behind that was is that all humans are created equal. I think they just use men as shorthand for humans, right? At least that's how I take it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:02

Yeah, whenever they talk about mankind, they're talking about everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:11:05

So yeah, women are more important than that.

Speaker 2: 1:11:06

So are children. I was just busting your chops. So, having said that, yeah, so question everything. I mean question it twice, you know, just for good measure. You know, I never see a news story online and then I automatically think it is the 100% truth until I go and research it. You know, or even facts people tell me you know they're like, oh it's, you know, this percentage number is of this statistic and I'm like I'm going to go research it because anything that you are told, I guarantee you you can find two or three more sources saying something else. Oh, we have someone new, jasmine that is worshipful, jasmine gerbic from lakeland, lodge 91. My brother is in the house. Is this the man, the myth, the lesson?

Speaker 1: 1:11:41

we've, he is the man. Wow, good to have you on the. Uh, what do we call this? The live stream, the live chat as?

Speaker 2: 1:11:48

responsible. Thank you, yeah, thanks, bald guy. No, jasmine, honestly is so far. I mean, we've got phenomenal brothers in this chat right now. So we've got Worshipful Roger Hall on here, we've got Brother Sean. Sean, I didn't catch your last name.

Speaker 1: 1:12:02

I think it's Sean Singleson.

Speaker 2: 1:12:08

I think he's the secretary, possibly. That is so, yeah, and and then of course, we have, uh, jasmine. Jasmine is, uh, our current marshal, um, and I tell you what? Just a no bs guy. He's just going to tell you exactly how it is, and that's what I love about him. It's like you want to talk about politics. There's no politics to be found with this guy. It's like it's either black or white.

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

That's what it is I mean, that's what we're doing here we're trying to educate, hopefully spur a desire for other nieces to learn more for themselves and really become a real free niece.

Speaker 2: 1:12:36

Yeah, and, and not only that, but and since jasmine's in the in the live chat, I definitely want to say something that he has said and this isn't controversial at all. We, jasmine and I, have had multiple conversations about protecting the west gate at all costs, and so whenever you're considering these knights, templars, and the different types of persecution that they could come under during this timeframe, you gotta keep in mind the Templars were of a different mindset on a lot of different things. So one of the things I thought was super, super interesting about the Templars is they ran a city in the Middle East, and whenever they ran this city in the Middle East I cannot remember the name of the city and I'm sorry, but whenever they ran this city, there was a point where there was a Christian church on one side and a mosque on the other side, and so what ended up happening is these guys freely traded with each other. There was no contention to be had among any of them. Something about Acre I think it was Acre, yeah, acre, yeah, acre, ac things everybody magically got along.

Speaker 2: 1:13:34

Imagine that. That's such a weird thing. And then, whenever the church gets involved and the pope and the king get involved, now all of a sudden oh no, we have to retake the Holy Land, we have to kill all these people. So you really kind of see a different spirit of the Templars than what the spirit of the crown and the church was at the time. It was always such an interesting story. I think there was at one point they could not use the mosque for some odd reason I can't remember if it was due to a fire or something some odd reason they couldn't use the mosque. So the Christians actually opened up their church for the Muslim worshipers to worship in there, and then the vice versa happened, like two years later, where the Muslims in the city were like no, please come use our mosque for your place of worship. So if we could all get along a little bit more like that it would be lovely.

Speaker 1: 1:14:16

I love that. I mean you're not going to your God's not going to cast you into the pit of fire because he showed some empathy towards somebody else.

Speaker 2: 1:14:23

Right, but faith in you? Okay, no-transcript. The brothers should be protecting the West gate. That's why we have, oh, no, you have to come to six meals over at our lodge. No, you have to come to six meals because, at the end of the day, if you're not going to be a good brother for this fraternity, then you're not going to be a good brother, and I'm sorry, you know, but this organization is not for you. So what?

Speaker 1: 1:14:51

can you really find out about a person by having six meals with them in a lodge?

Speaker 2: 1:14:56

It depends on who's talking to them. I can get a shocking amount of information out of a person within six conversations and it's a lot of fun. So, and Jasmine just commented that one of the things that he wants to see is a level of dedication, which, again, I'm not opposed to at all. So we have to make sure Attention evocation there's some things, yeah, and so one of the things that we talked about, we went and did an investigation on some NPD brothers and Jasmine had a line that night that I absolutely loved and he said look, we do not need more members in the lodge, we have plenty of members. We need more masons.

Speaker 2: 1:15:24

And I absolutely love that, because what you see is all these people want to put on the square and compass, they want to sit there and show off, they want to put the sticker on the back of their car, they want to get the cool license plate and put that on the back of their car. They're seeking titles, they're seeking chairs, they're seeking a higher status, which, again, that's an issue that we're having currently. So people that are seeking higher status that they're not ready for. No, it's not about that. It's about the brotherhood, it's about the fraternity, it's about a dedication to the craft and becoming a good man, and not only that, but helping your brothers become good men as well is, at the end of the day, what it should be. So here's the thing.

Speaker 1: 1:15:58

If you look at, you run a business, I run a business and we know this is true because we deal with it day in and day out. 20% of the people do 80% of the work in every organization.

Speaker 2: 1:16:09

At church.

Speaker 1: 1:16:09

Government, you name it, it's there, I'm always one of the 20%, because that's who I am, you're probably the same way.

Speaker 2: 1:16:16

Well, there's a reason why, on a Sunday, I'm up here doing this podcast with you. It's because I'm dedicated.

Speaker 1: 1:16:21

You know, I love the craft, I love everything about it, so like the thing is that you can't, because Don Cowart has made the same argument to me about my marketing program. Is we need to? We need to guard the west gate? Okay, I understand what you're saying. However, those other 80 percent are paying for your lodge. They're paying for the bills of the lodge. Even though they're not stepping foot in the lodge, they are contributing. So I don't like. Personally, as a guy who's brought in tons and tons of mason to the fraternity, I've seen only 20 of them are going to wind up coming to the lodge anyways. So if you try to make it so that you only bring in the 20%, I don't think you can support a lodge that way, to be honest with you. I just think in the long run it'll survive because you need those other 80 to pay the bills and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:17:08

There's an argument to be made for that. Yeah, that of course. Obviously you're going to have to have, you have overhead, you're going to have a P&L statement and, at the end of the day, you have to be bringing enough money in in order to offset the cost of operating a lodge. And we're not a full 501c3. So it's, we're a 501c8. So it's not like we're getting all these anonymous contributions because you can't write them off.

Speaker 2: 1:17:29

But if we could change.

Speaker 2: 1:17:31

So here's an interesting thought, chris, I'd love your opinion on this If we could change Freemasonry from a coding of a 501c8 to a 501c3, or if we could start an LLC that is a 501c3 that's strictly for helping to raise lodge funds. So let's say we have a speaking engagement, speaking engagement, we bring in a big celebrity person. We have 1,000 people there that night. We would get more people there if it were tax deductible, if it was a 501c3. So how can we go about doing that in order to raise funds, especially on a local lodge level? So let's say, district 21 wants to put this on and all the funds that are going to be brought in from that are going to get funneled out directly to the lodges, you know, in the percentage of amount they help. So if this lodge sent two people and this lodge sent 10 people, okay, you've got percentage going to that one and percentage going to that one. What are your thoughts on that? What are the legalities on that and can we do that according to Grand Lodge rules?

Speaker 1: 1:18:24

Yes, so I had the privilege when I was the worst home master of my lodge. That same year I was the president of the master mason association and one of the I mean the biggest job you have, as in the master mason association, is to raise money for the grandmaster's official visit. Like that's what you got to do because those things are expensive. It's expensive, could be anywhere from five to seven thousand dollars. What we used to do is say what you just said okay, we have nine lodges in the district. We have this many masons in total between the nine lodges. All we're going to do is assess the lodges and it's based on your membership so that everybody pays.

Speaker 1: 1:18:59

That makes sense mason associated they try to make it seem like they could raise it differently and we get donations. You know they did raffles, but winds up happening is 20 of the people are paying for all of it now. Instead of everyone sharing in, it's just the guys that buy raffle tickets that are actually paying for it now.

Speaker 1: 1:19:16

So, what I did was I held an event that wasn't Masonic. I didn't invite Masons, I didn't ask for money from Masons. I held it out to the general public. So you, as a lot, can actually go get a license in the state of Florida to ask for money from the general public legally, and then all you have to do is put a disclaimer on your event that you have the right to do this, and here's the actual number from the state that you have the right to do this. If you're not sure how to word it, send it to the grand secretary and he'll literally write it for you and you just paste it on your events and now you can go out to the general public and raise money for your lodges, for your district or whatever you want to do.

Speaker 1: 1:20:00

And we proved we raised enough money to have a gmo be visit and not a penny came from mason, and so I think that's really the way that it should be. We, because one it forced us to interface with the public. If I'm going to ask them for money, they need to know who we are right. So, like we gave a speech and we talked to I try to have it about D-Mole and the kids and stuff and we gave a speech because I think that's the best way to grow.

Speaker 1: 1:20:19

The fraternity is start at the bottom and kids really these days need to be in a structured environment around good, positive role models. They really need it. So we need to grow our D-Malay and our Rainbow Girls and our children's organizations, which are really lost and they're getting shut down and closed down because guess what? There's not a lot of glory in it for people and that's why they're going away. Let's be honest, if you want to talk about guarding the Westgate, you couldn't be more concerned with starting with children and getting them from when they're young to become good people.

Speaker 2: 1:20:53

The reason why I asked that is we're actually going to have two speaking events at lakeland lodge this year one and we're going to grow this year every year, by the way. So that's why I I talked to you at one point about doing, you know, some masonic education for us on podcasting, the reimbursement program, like all all the stuff that you into, but we're going to end up having Past Master Dave Yontz from Texas. We're going to end up having him at our lodge talking about guarding the West Gates. Now, he's from Texas, he's a Texas Freemason and he's going to be talking about protecting the West Gate. So we're starting to do more public-facing events.

Speaker 1: 1:21:31

You know, is there anything you would like to say to all the people listening to the podcast today about the fraternity or the Knights Templar, or Bookhorn and Blood Brothers.

Speaker 2: 1:21:42

What I will say is this Again, if you're even curious about Freemasonry, you're still one of the profane. You're an EA, fellow craft, even a Master Mason. I don't care if you've been a Master Mason for 20 minutes or 20 years. Pick up this book, read this book. The history of it is absolutely phenomenal, because you're going to see that whenever we talk about a time honored tradition, this fraternity that has existed since time immemorial, you're going to see more broad picture over the course of history just how effective Masonry has been, and so I hope to do more book breakdowns like this.

Speaker 2: 1:22:11

I'm going to do some more research on the Freemasons' interactions with the Revolutionary War and with the Civil War, World War II I would love to really dive into. Okay, here are some resources that we found to talk about. Here is how Freemasonry has helped shape the history of this planet for the better. Because, again, you're not going to hear that in any church pulpit these days. They're just going to say that Freemasonry is evil. We're not evil at the end of the day. At the end of the day, we are a group of men who are trying to become better and also hold our brothers to the exact same standards of becoming better men. So definitely seek out the book, read the book, enjoy the book. It is a lot of fun. It's a fun read and also grab you some to enjoy it with with your premium beverage.

Speaker 2: 1:22:50

So yeah, pour you, pour you a scotch, pour you a whiskey and then have a cigar.

Speaker 1: 1:22:54

Oh, okay, okay well, brothers from on the level podcast. For now we are out, out you.