On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
The Art of Masonic Leadership and Global Brotherhood with Guest Mark Tishman
Joining me today is Worshipful Master Mark Tishman, hailing from the sun-soaked 23rd Masonic District of Florida, to shed light on the profound transitions in Masonic leadership. With Mark, we unravel the intricate dance of stepping into the role of Worshipful Master, embracing the mantle of responsibility while etching a meaningful legacy. We navigate the nuances of leadership that transcends the pursuit of titles, delving into how Masonic values steer charitable actions, such as Mark's exemplary initiative to nourish the homeless with food from our lodge.
Our conversation meanders through the storied history of Sarasota's Masonic lodges, where the echoes of the past resonate through the walls of Builders Lodge and the preserved efforts of Brother Dale Jackson. We pay tribute to the intertwining paths that gave rise to Phoenix Lodge and the revered portraits of past Masters, each telling a tale of commitment and vision. The dialogue takes a turn towards the role of Past Masters Advisory Council, striking a balance between venerating seasoned wisdom and invigorating the lodge with fresh perspectives, all while weaving the fabric of a diverse and welcoming brotherhood.
Venture with us beyond the familiar thresholds of local lodges to the captivating encounters of international Masonic travels. From North Carolina's mountainous charm to the vibrant traditions of a Cape Town lodge, the episodes of warmth and brotherhood experienced around the globe are shared. These narratives not only shape our understanding of service and diversity but also reaffirm the unbreakable bonds of our fraternity. As we wrap up, I impart some reflections for my fellow Masons, encouraging us to carry the guiding light from our lodges into the vast expanse of our daily lives, radiating a positive influence across the global canvas.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry. Join on the level podcast as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft and try to unlock the mysteries, dispel the fallacies and utilize the teachings of Freemasonry to unlock the greatness within each of us. I have you now, alright. Welcome back. Welcome back to On the Level Podcast. Today on On the Level Podcast, we have a very special guest, a good friend of mine, who most of the listeners will never have heard his name until today, but I doubt that this will be the last time you hear it Worshipful, mark Tishman of the 23rd Masonic District in the state of Florida. Welcome to the show, mark.
Speaker 2:Good morning brother, good morning worshipful Tishman.
Speaker 1:Good morning worshipful yourself, worshipful Master Mark Tishman. I apologize, that means I better stand up because I'm sitting. I genuflect, but I'm already sitting.
Speaker 2:Oh please, you're not worthy. I'm genuflect but I'm already sitting. Oh please, you're not worthy. It's okay, only to the big G Welcome, I'm pleased to be here, chris.
Speaker 1:We're recording now Very early January, february. Sorry, we just broke into February, so I'm assuming that you've probably had at least two State of Communications at this point in your Worshipful Master year.
Speaker 2:I have so far. Indeed, we're about to have our third this coming Tuesday, correct?
Speaker 1:So you should have it all figured out. You should be totally streamlined. You got it on every little detail. You're totally comfortable in the role by now. Just crushing it, man. That's a joke for anybody that's been in the East. You don't really get comfortable until about the 11th month of your job you start to feel like you got it down. It's a hard transition because you spend many years. It's different for each of us. For me it was about five years going through the progressive line and then one day you have total and complete authority over the entire operation and nothing changed for you as a man. You woke up one morning the same guy you were for six years busting your butt in the lodge, and then you go to sleep that night and you have total and complete authority over all your members in the entire operation. It's a pretty harsh transition, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2:I agree, it's uh, it's still settling in at times and there are uh, it was only recently when I actually had to issue orders. Granted, they were by email, but I had to issue orders. Oh really, that that it made me understand, me understand. But it wasn't because people weren't cooperating, it was because I wanted to make sure we had certain information in by a date certain.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, okay yeah, you mean, you're actually trying to do your job.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to do my job.
Speaker 1:Congratulations on that A lot of masters, really a lot of people in positions of authority in a fraternal organization. That is a charity. They're there for the title more than the work. So it's good to hear that you hit the ground focused on the right things. That's a good sign for your year.
Speaker 2:I have a focus of and it may be a bit for selfish purposes, but I'd like to leave a legacy with the green checkmark rather than the black circle, with the red circle. Yeah, I'd like to. I'd like to leave a legacy that that that is very helpful and that I'm able to keep my trestle board on track and focused and even accomplish it focused and even accomplish it.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and that's why I wanted to have you here, because I've known you since I joined Freemasonry. Mark, worshipful Master Mark Tishman is the master of the lodge that I was raised in and I've said on the podcast many times I've said a little bit about my history in joining Freemasonry that I joined the lodge and I didn't get the experience I was hoping for in that lodge and I wound up seeking it in another lodge and that's where I've settled and thrived is in the second lodge that I joined. But Mark is in the original lodge that I joined, phoenix Lodge, number 346 in Sarasota, florida, and I remember in the early days for me after I was raised, you were one of the first people that stood out to me and you'll be surprised to hear this because I never told him before, but I was sitting, as I believe junior steward was the first chair I sat in and we were at a state of communication and your job as the steward is to basically not fall asleep. I believe Junior Stewart was the first chair I sat in and we were at a state of communication and your job as a steward is to basically not fall asleep. So I just stare at the wall across the room and just try my hardest not to fall asleep. And one time Mark Tishman stood up and he said you know, I, brothers, I would like to take our leftovers from our dinners and bring them to the homeless downtown of Sarasota and people no one offered to help you, of course, but they did allow you to do it and it struck me as something very different than I was experiencing in that lodge At that point in my Masonic career was someone just trying to do something good for someone else, and I don't know if you recall that, but it's something that you.
Speaker 1:I don't know why you did that, but I was impressed by it at the time. I thought that's a very selfless thing to take your time to take this food down to people, and we have a very big homeless problem in the city of Sarasota. It's very rampant in the downtown area. They have a whole community that just live in the middle of the city, in the downtown city, there, out in the open, and they're always hanging around. And so you did that for I don't know how long, until I think it became a dangerous situation because it was nighttime, it was dark and I think you had to stop for safety reasons, otherwise you probably would have kept doing it. Do you recall that?
Speaker 2:I do. I also recall I don't remember if that was the actual occasion when I floated a motion that we allowed that to happen. I know I talked about wanting to do it.
Speaker 1:That may have been the same time and you weren't an officer, by the way, you were just a member on the sidelines. Just that idea.
Speaker 2:I still do it. I still do it. I don't do it with lodge food. And you're right, safety is a matter. One of our past masters of the lodge told me and he's an ex-law enforcement officer and he's an attorney he deals with, you know, a lot of defense situations and he deals a lot of almost in an advocacy role for, um, you know, sort of like a quasi public defender, um, so he has a bit of a jaded, you know, look, and it's just his personality, and he said, you know, and he brought up a point which is that somebody can say thanks for the food, but give me your car.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I realized that and you have this idyllic bubble around you, like, oh, I'm doing good and I'm serving, I'm carrying this sort of masonry with me and I'm going to be okay, right, right, no, the, the, the, the ones who are inebriated, go well, my uncle was a mason or something, or you know, or I really always want to learn about the. You know, I want to learn about the. Uh, you know about the cabal or whatever. You know, they talk about that, but most people are very, very, very grateful. I only had one guy one time asked me for the ten dollar bill my in my pocket and I said, no, I'm here to give you a meal. I didn't't say it that calmly and quietly, but anyway, I don't recall you being there that night, but I recall me saying that and I'm grateful and I did that.
Speaker 2:And I stopped doing that officially, not so much for safety reasons, but I rotated out of the South and you know I still do it with people, but I don't go alone. Oh, that's important. And I usually like, when I've stood up and would go, I'd say, if somebody has three arms with them, I'd like them to go with me. You know, if somebody is armed Not that we want to have a conflict, but I do it during the day Like I did it the other day.
Speaker 1:Well, you live in the state of Florida and I'm pretty sure everyone is born with a 9mm in the state of Florida, so finding someone armed is not a difficult thing to do, you mean?
Speaker 2:somebody with three arms, right, exactly, exactly, you know. And then some, yeah, I do. It's interesting, a lot of people are, and I'm sure we have people in the lodge who have to carry permits.
Speaker 1:We absolutely do. I was at your lodge for doing a lecture or something in a degree one night and a guy's gun fell right out of his jacket in the dining hall. Gun slugged off the floor, Ouch Ow.
Speaker 2:Glad I think it was on safety.
Speaker 1:That would have been a problem but I'm sure if you, if you asked everyone to show, there's, I bet, probably more than 50% of the lodges, probably yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, we, we've got X law enforcement.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just fine. You know it's interesting Cause I um, we had a presentation by Sarasota County Sheriff's Office about. It was an active shooter presentation and we made sure we didn't call it a drill because it wasn't a drill but it was a presentation. And I realized, you know, in this day and age it doesn't hurt because, especially with, as you know, there was a lodge in Florida that was burned by someone that was a frustrated Mason. There have been at least one homicide of Masons outside lodges. So you know, I'm fine with it and we've even gone as far as having conversation or having certain people who are really good at that strategically placed to the lodge.
Speaker 2:Again, it's really unfortunate and I'm not here to discuss the political scenario so much it's unfortunate that we live in a day and age when that is part of the reality more for children than it is for us. Yes, but we do have to consider the fact that if somebody wants to get into that building while we're there, it's not impossible to get in there. And even though we do, we all know there's a Tyler and the Tyler has a sword, but that doesn't mean he's an excellent marksman, you know. Yeah, so the point is is that I'm comfortable with that. But anyway, I'm kind of going down the digression from the downtown. The downtown was I had people, I've done it before and I brought to my masonry this feeling of giving. I really, really, really feel very, very tuned in to. We call it, you know, the great architect, my higher power, whatever you want to choose to call it, god, whatever, I feel very tuned in and plugged in when I'm able to give, and give for the right reasons.
Speaker 1:And I think that is a very common thread for people that join the fraternity. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves and they don't really know how in their everyday life to get engaged in that kind of thing and they're looking for an organization that can help them contribute time, money, whatever it is they want to do towards charity for other men and Freemasonry. You know, I've talked to hundreds and hundreds of people that want to join the fraternity and that is almost always something that they say they're interested in. It's very common Now, talking about this, talking about joining the fraternity, I'm very curious to find out personally why you decided to join the fraternity and at what age or what point of your life like how did you get to the point where you walked through the door for the first time?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll preface it by saying that masonry has taught me to live with more intention and more planning. And that said, there was not intention and planning in becoming a mason. In my previous career, I was in the financial services industry. In the financial services industry and one of my clients and I were scheduled to have a review of the financial products that I had sold this person and I went to his home to meet with him and his wife and I noticed on his pickup truck a bumper sticker that said Freemasons Built America. And I had heard of the Freemasons and this was about 2010, maybe.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so that was, you know, almost 14 years ago, right? So I was just about 50 at the time and I went inside and, you know, we said I said what is that bumper sticker outside? What does that mean? So instead of explaining to me, he starts up, goes to the other room, gets a petition.
Speaker 1:So you've been a member of Phoenix Lodge from day one.
Speaker 2:Actually, I was a member of I believe it was builders builders right before they were so I believe I was a member of builders. Uh, very briefly, um and then, uh, and I don't. I mean, if anyone looks up masonic record, which is on a committee, or it's available or I can, I can give it or you can look it up, but I, I believe that I was actually raised in Phoenix, but I believe I petitioned in Builders.
Speaker 1:So interesting story here Sarasota Lodge. The members of Sarasota Lodge branched off and formed another lodge in the city of Sarasota called Builders Lodge. From what I understand from the history, I was told this is mainly Masons who were actually builders as a craft and that's why they called it Builders Lodge. These were people who worked with their hands in construction in some way, shape or form and actually did build their own lodge.
Speaker 2:if I understand the history correctly, Well, that building was built by Masons. The building at 240 South Tuttle definitely had a lot of people I don't remember the gentleman's name in 1960 or 61 who was instrumental in doing that, but they definitely built that block building there and it stands. It's got a very impressive building and they did something at the time which was they put in concrete trusses. You've been in the time which was they put in. You know concrete trusses, you know if you've ever gone in, you've been in the attic of that building, right, chris? Oh, yes, it's very big, it's big, it's big and it's cleaned out. So I'm going to give a shout out to Dale Jackson, brother Dale Jackson, right here on podcast, and when you hear it, dale, you know that I was thinking about you because he is our lodge property chair and he has done an amazing job along with other people getting that catacombs cleaned out. So it is that you can actually walk up there brother.
Speaker 1:Brother dale is a master of the art of what I like to call busting of the balls. Every time I come to your lodge, he is a professional ball buster uh that is true, I find it hilarious. So I don't know if everyone gets it, but I I know that he's being funny and I I have fun.
Speaker 2:He's good, he's he. I like, I like, I like you know, I do hope that he gets the opportunity to be on your podcast sometime because I think he's uh, he's, a wealth of knowledge, an interesting man and um, I like him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have very opposing views on things, oh absolutely, I very much like to talk to people that have opposing views.
Speaker 2:I'll see him later. I'll tell him to reach out and see if he wants to do it. It's great to see if he wants to do it, but anyway, I digress. But you know a lot of people built it and I didn't know that. You just told me something I did not know. By the way, yeah, so it's even more fun.
Speaker 1:So Sarasota Lodge had enough of a massive membership. After a group of them splintered off to form Builders Lodge, another group splintered off and formed a lodge in honor of, I think, the only member of Sarasota Lodge that ever became a Grandmaster of the State of Florida, cary B Fish.
Speaker 2:Not quite, not quite. There was the fellow in Punta Gorda was also a Grandmaster.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean for Sarasota 147,. The only member we had become a Grandmaster was Cary B Fish, who was an attorney in town at the time, right right, and he was fortunate enough to be the Grandmaster and laid the cornerstone at the courthouse downtown and the school in Sarasota, all in 1923, somewhere around that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So after he passed they formed a lodge in his name and now we have three lodges in the city of Sarasota and over time, I believe Builder's Lodge had money, or they had money and not members, because they sold their building and had money and Carrie B Fish was meeting in the same lodge as Builder's Lodge and didn't have much membership. So one lodge had the money, one lodge had the membership. They were struggling independently and they wound up merging into a new lodge that became known as phoenix lodge phoenix rising from the ashes. Phoenix, which is the logo of phoenix lodge 346. Um, and that's so.
Speaker 2:Mark is telling you that he came in under builder'sodge and then must have been raised somewhere around the transition of that merger our first transitional worshipful master was Niall Davenport and then, after Niall, his son Michael took over, and Michael took over for basically the second half of the year and I believe Dutch was our first full year master.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:In Phoenix.
Speaker 1:Lodge. Isn't it wild that now your picture is going to be on the wall after this year and the same legacy of all of those other masters from those other two lodges.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting. You mentioned that and I'm looking for it to be a very long time before there's a black stripe across my shoulder. Can you explain what that means to people you know in the lodge and I'm sure a lot of brothers in your lodges you know that when you see a picture of a past master on the wall and he has a black ribbon, it means he's laid down his working tools. Yeah, Onto the celestial lodge in the sky. I don't know, but you're right, it is interesting. I will be with these guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's something that never. Really I didn't ever think about it. I'm one of those like I keep my mind focused on what's right in front of me and the goals I've got to achieve and I'm hyper-focused on those things and when it's over is when I realized whoa, I did all that stuff. Whoa, this stuff happened. That's when I realized, I think when I left, the East was well, we moved our past Masters pictures into the Lodge room.
Speaker 1:Before I became Master, I was the first Master of Sarasota Lodge and they've been around since 1905. They got to sit and preside in master. So I was the first master of Sarasota Lodge. They've been around since 1905. They got to sit and preside in the East and I would just spend half of the entire meeting looking at the past masters staring out at us and that weight, really it weighed on me heavily. I recommend, if you can get your past masters pictures in the lodge because it elevates the whole experience, to think about how many men poured so much passion and energy into this place that you're now presiding over and it really does make you think twice before you speak or make a decision. You don't want to let those guys down.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. You say that. I'll tell you. I've thought about that and you know, in leading any good organization, you know you have to pick your battles carefully.
Speaker 2:Right Now we we are unique in the fact that we have a rental building. Our building is owned by the Scottish Rite of Florida. The Valley of Tampa actually owns it. It may be titled differently, but it is the Scottish Rite Center of Sarasota. So as tenants we have free reign to do what we want, but from a.
Speaker 2:You know, I come from a business background and so the business person in me says you know, there's not a ton of incentive to pour a lot of money into a building that you do not own, nor will you ever own, right, but we are still stewards and it's custodians and we want to take care of it.
Speaker 2:So I got there are. There are in that building. For those that haven't been there in the in what used to be the street entrance lobby right off of Tuttle Avenue there and that was where people used to enter back in the day. Now everybody enters through the back parking lot entrance now, but there are pictures of past Scottish Rite people and shrine people and the consensus has been to move all the pictures from the social hall of Carrie B and builders into the hall and leave the Phoenix Masters in the fellowship hall. So that's what I wanted them inside. But you know, it was recently that somebody told me and it was a successful Mason said to me when you're in the East actually it was two days ago I had a past grandmaster talk to me and we had lunch and he said you know, it's a benevolent dictatorship but the ones who are the most successful run it as a consensus-based democracy and that's what I try to do.
Speaker 1:We are servants of the craft. As masters we are servant leaders is how I always looked at it. We bear full responsibility, but we defer all decision-making to the brothers of the lodge. Correct, we are only there to break a tie. If they can't decide Really, it's their line.
Speaker 2:That's really a great way of looking at it, and that's why it's difficult for me to want to find myself in a position of. You know, in my installation, once I had been given the jewel of my office and, as everyone knows, the square of the master, it hangs in a way that the point is facing up and the arms are facing down. I physically held it in my hand and lifted it up to show that it is an inverted triangle as well and that I am on the bottom and I'm there to serve. And that was the. That was the method I chose to use that allegory, right To speak about Very Masonic, very Masonic way to explain it.
Speaker 1:That's how we like to learn through allegory and symbols. You made a symbol out of it.
Speaker 2:I made a symbol out of it. It was servant leadership. I talked about it and it has been pointed out to me that I'm but a conductor. I'm but an orchestra conductor and I just have to be to make sure that the triangles and the bassoons get along and play nice and stand together. That's right.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is how lodges succeed. So I don't want to dwell on any negativity here. But I've repeatedly talked about my early experiences in Freemasonry and how it wasn't for me Right.
Speaker 1:And I don't want to say names. I don't want to talk about any specific years or instances, but I will say this is a Masonic thing, that is, it's not just a one lodge problem. This is a I think it's a general, not even just in our jurisdiction, but globally. An issue is that we have a progressive line and a beautiful system of shared ownership over our lodges and and um, you know it's a dangerous thing when past leadership tries to maintain control after their time is over.
Speaker 1:When you've got, for example, secretaries or other important roles that past masters should fill because they're obviously the best ones for those roles, they understand the lodge working better than anybody. I've seen lodges where those people try to maintain control of the lodge and not let the active officers run the lodge as they see fit, versus lodges that respect that, and I was just talking to Jeremy Barnes yesterday about this and said he realized what being a master was when he turned to who is ultimately the most powerful mason in DC was his secretary. He asked him a question and the secretary said don't ask me, it's your lodge, horsfall Master.
Speaker 2:Which is the?
Speaker 1:best. That's great. That really taught him. I'm on my own up here, I need to run this thing, but a lot of lodges aren't like that. If you ask the secretary the question, he's more than happy to answer that question.
Speaker 1:Take control or even not wait until you ask the question, just tell you what to do, and so that's a good lesson, I think, for anyone that's in the progressive line coming up is to enjoy your time and make your impact as you're going through the line, because it goes fast, faster than you think it's going to go, and your impact can be far reaching through the lodge's history if you're a good, active, contributing brother. But once your time is over, your job is now to support the active line. It's not to continue to run that lodge. You're there to share your history and your experiences and obviously, voice your opinion is about your conscious as a brother, but ultimately you're there to support the new line that's running that lodge you know, going in, I thought to myself that we're going to have to deal with strong characters who want to continue to control and run the Lodge.
Speaker 2:And it was explained to me not long ago and I think you and I had a conversation about this, chris, and you even agreed was that by the fact that they are past masters and the fact that they've stayed in service in an officer position shows their dedication to the lodge. That's right. Looking at it in a negative way, we could say they're trying to have control. In a positive way, we could say they have the vested interest, they have residual ownership, like all of us, and I think that one thing that has been inculcated is a nice way of saying, drilled into my head is do not break the lodge. Right, and that's a very subjective term of what breaking the lodge means. But you know I will tell you this that I have a feeling it's talking about harmony problem.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, it is so. So what you? What you said to me is you agree that they have a vested interest. So what you said to me is you agree that they have a vested interest. However, that would be more like in a defensive position rather than an offensive position. In other words, their job would be basically to shore up the if we're going sideways, you know to kind of make sure those boundaries are in place. So you know, I met with the leadership of my lodge and the past leadership of my lodge and I said you need to give myself and our senior warden and junior warden a chance to fail.
Speaker 2:That's what I said. This is how we learn our lessons. Is you and me Right? Exactly, and by and large, they've honored that. And I will harken back to something you said in the very beginning of our interview, which was that you wake up one day and you're still the same man. Yeah, I realize that now that I know a thing or two, because lifelong masonry, you know, albert Pike would tell me I'm but a pup.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:Okay so but lifelong learning of masonry, and I know a thing or two about the operation of lodge and I have a bit of experience in my life being. You know, having made it this far, you know this many times around the sun. What I will tell you is I will use them as a wealth of knowledge. I don't mind turning, they won't steer me wrong.
Speaker 2:As a wealth of knowledge, I don't mind turning, they won't steer me wrong, and I'm also able to tell them you know I haven't had to remind them who's in the East and I hope I don't Right, I never want to be in that position. I never want to be in that position because I think part of that. I think part of that is also how I conduct myself and don't put myself in a position where I need to be run.
Speaker 1:I think you make a good point here. There's two sides to that relationship. Because you're now an active officer, you're the head of the active officer.
Speaker 1:I'm the primary officer of the lodge, and so you'll understand this more next year. But I'm a past master now and so, although I'm advocating for the officer line to have their freedom to make their choices and make their mistakes, as I said, and the past master job is ultimately to support them Um, you know the officers on the flip side, the active officers, also need to really, like you just said, look to your past masters and include them in as much as they can, because those brothers still need a reason to come to the lodge and you can give it to them, you can include them in things, you can ask their opinions on things.
Speaker 1:You can ask for help and guidance, and that's what they're there for. That's how you have a good relationship is that both sides are doing the best they can in their specific roles and they're engaging each other, and I think that's what makes a healthy lot and hopefully, it is yeah, you're saying you're doing that. You're actually having lunch with these people asking opinions, asking for support, and now they've got to do their job and give their opinions. But respect that you're making the decisions now, when the decision comes.
Speaker 2:You're right. My position is that nobody knows what it's like to be a worshipful master, except a worshipful master or a past minister. So it was recommended to me, after the election was held and I knew I was then a worshipful master elect at that point to convene an ad hoc past masters council. So I sought out all the living masters of the lodge I'll be a little different in 147 because there's a lot of living people left, which is fine. See, we only have a history of 11 or 12 years and we've actually already lost one member, you know, and a couple have moved away and all. So I convened them, I got some, you know, some snacks and I had them come to the lodge and you know, granted, we're not supposed to have Masonic business on Sunday, but everybody said, you know, this is the only day we can get together. So we went over and we met around three o'clock and we had a conversation and I laid out my trestle board you know which was my plan and my agenda for the year and I said please tear it apart, pick it apart, tell me if it'll work. If it won't work, yes, no, maybe. And that was a very valuable way. If nothing else, it forged the relationships. It demonstrated my humility that I wasn't just, like, you know, simba in the Lion King, I just can't wait to be king. I wasn't just like, you know, simba in the Lion King, I just can't wait to be king. I wasn't interested in just waiting to be king, I was interested in, you know, being involved in the lodge and I was, you know, nervous, of course, and you know there's a term called eustress and eustress, so the eustress is a good stress.
Speaker 2:We've got a lodge meeting on Tuesday, right this weekend. Tomorrow, today and tomorrow we begin working on the agenda. You know when all eyes are on you. You know it's really important for you to make sure that you have an agenda that works, that flows, you know, and I try to be inclusive, as I told you before. So I'll send it out to all the officers and we also give copies to all the to the craft when they go into the lodge. They can follow. Yeah, so I believe in, I believe in collaboration. Collaboration is a very important part. It makes it better.
Speaker 1:The more eyeballs you have looking at things, the more opinions, the better the end product's going to be.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes, product's going to be exactly yes, so, um, so we'll look forward to seeing what the reviews are. Our interview, well, I'll tell you. Uh, they say great minds think alike. So when I became master, the very first thing I did uh, we use a communication tool called group me, which is a messaging app that allows you to have a lot of people in different groups categorized. Our lodge has one, I'm sure your lodge has one.
Speaker 1:I made a new group called the Past Masters Advisory Council and I put every living past master in that group me and I used it a lot in my year. Every time I had a kerpuffle pop up or there was some dissension and I was not immediately sure what to do. And you can't go to the craft with all this kind of stuff, but you can write past masters and they loved hearing it and being able to share their opinions privately. Right, this is just between the past masters, right, and now I'm a. I'm a member of the past masters council and I added the new master into it and hopefully this is a tradition that they'll carry on for some time, just letting every master have this like advisory council in their back pocket, because, wow, what a wealth of resource of information you have, it's true.
Speaker 2:And the list will grow. That's great and, like we said, we want to include them.
Speaker 1:They're an important part of our lodge, and so let them shine in the role that they're in, which is advising the master and helping him through his journey.
Speaker 2:I think that there's a lot to learn from everyone and you know, the more diverse we are, the more people we bring in, the more, even though we have this unity of purpose. The more experiences people bring in, the more you can draw on those experiences you know, Well, what a great transition to the next subject I have for you.
Speaker 1:All right, you did that perfectly.
Speaker 1:You said you mentioned the word diversity.
Speaker 1:So Freemasonry and this is this podcast was built for originally for people that aren't Masons yet I wanted to talk about Freemasonry in such a way as to make it understandable to someone that's not a Mason, that's researching, because there's too much nonsense out there, and so when we talk about Freemasonry, the first thing we talk about is that it is not a religion, and this fraternal organization, although it mandates, in order to be a member, you must believe in a higher power than yourself and an eternal salvation, for example, it does not dictate what flavor of religion you take on Correct, and so it is quite inclusive, and that diversity strengthens us as a group, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:I run a company, and diversity of opinion, of age, of upbringing, of socioeconomic status, those variety of experiences and opinions, make the end product so much stronger when you can get input from each of those groups into the end product, and so I believe it's the same in our fraternity the more diverse range of ages and people and ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic status we have working together, the better our end product is going to be to society, and I only bring that up because you are actively in the state of Florida, which mandates that a Christian Bible be present on its altar at all times during any state or cult communication, and you yourself are a man of Jewish faith and you know this is that makes you a minority in the state of Florida, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:No, by fact, not opinion.
Speaker 1:And so I have so many questions for people in that situation. Because I'm not. I'm born a white man in upstate New York and Christian. You know, my mom taught at the Sunday school and I was a. I was a Presbyterian growing up and that's what. That's all I knew, and so when I moved to Florida, I became subjected to a lot of different things. You know, I worked at Disney was my first job. Disney is like 70% gay. That was a huge culture shock for me coming from conservative upstate New York to 70% gay.
Speaker 1:It took a minute for me to get my bearings, but let me tell you I'm a better man today for having experienced the diversity that I did in my life, I know the benefits of embracing diversity, and so whenever I get an opportunity to talk to somebody that's not of my flavor of life, I really want to ask questions, a lot of questions. I'm very curious, so would you mind if we talk briefly about that topic, not at all, I'd be happy to share.
Speaker 1:So when you came into the fraternity, was it explained to you that you were going to take an obligation and you can choose your book of faith when you do that? It was not. It was not Okay.
Speaker 2:And knowing now what I know, I would have selected what we call the Tanakh, which is the Torah in a bound form. You can't bring a Torah onto the altars because they don't travel too well, you know, and there's all kinds of conditions in which they travel, but you can bring this book, which I have, and it is the Torah, the entire Torah, in a printed bound form had.
Speaker 1:I known then I would have used that. So, and it is difficult because we don't, you can't really blame necessarily the lodge that you're initiated in for that, because we don't ask.
Speaker 2:We don't ask, we don't say hey, are you Jewish?
Speaker 1:We don't do that.
Speaker 2:No, we don't ask, and the rule would have still had been there that the Christian Bible was there. But I could have had that as well. I noticed recently a picture of Vice President Kamala Harris when she was being installed and sworn in. There was the Christian Bible, but there was also I do not know if she is converted, I know her husband is Jewish and I noticed. If you look at that picture you'll see there's two books with her hand on top of two books. There's one book on top of another. I just noticed that recently. So I was told I could have done that.
Speaker 2:But the way I, all of us in our lodge and probably it's this way in the lodge that you were a past master of are given a Masonic Bible, and that Masonic Bible, even though it has a whole lot of interesting information and nice pictures and a gold leaf binding and everything, it is the St James Bible and inside there is the first five books of Moses, which is the Holy Scriptures. It is the, and inside there is the first five books of Moses, which is the Holy Scriptures. It is the Holy Scriptures. That is what I grew up with. So once I learned that, I didn't ask for a redo or take two. I said, okay, it's there, I'm installed, I'm raised and I took my obligation and my hand was in the right place and, more importantly, my heart was in the right place.
Speaker 1:Yes, obligation and my hand was in the right place and, more importantly, my heart was in the right place. So here's here's what we have to do as masters of our lodges is be observant. So I was master last year and we, we initiated 20 some guys.
Speaker 1:One of those guys I observed wearing a yarmulke and he was there for his installation, or he was going to be initiated that day and he was there for his installation, or he was going to be initiated that day, and he was there just relaxing and I happened to he was sitting, so I could see it on his head, and so I walked up to him and said, excuse me, I noticed your yarmulke. I'm presuming that you're Jewish, of the Jewish faith, and he said, yes, I am. And I said well, we actually have you're going to take an obligation today.
Speaker 1:He was an odd fellow and apparently the odd fellows go through a very similar practice to what the Freemasons do. So he was immediately knew what I was about to ask him. He said, yes, I do, and I said, okay, we happen to have a Tanakh, we have a Bible, we have the Quran, we have all the books under our altar, so if you'd like, I can pull it out for you when you take your obligation. He said, yes, please. So the only reason that happened for him is because I was observant and I inquired, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 2:Unless a ware master would have said the only person who can have their head covered in the lodge is the master and actually in the Digest in Florida. It does clearly stay in the digest in florida that a person who wears a head covering for religious purposes may keep their head covered absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, and he did, he wore his yarmulke and every time he came to lodge and for every degree he took, which is great. Again, that's part of the diversity that makes us awesome, because it's a clear, visible sign that oh, I want to for me, that, oh, I need to ask this brother some questions. I have questions for him and he's going to have answers, and we had many conversations. He actually bought me a beautiful Torah and gave it to me as a gift, as well as another book, because he didn't begin Jewish. He actually converted to Judaism later in life because of his wife, and so I told him you know, at one point I think I don't know, maybe I'm Jewish and he said maybe you are. He gave me some books about it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting because I talk to people along the way and they go. My grandmother was jewish and I go, okay, and I said, uh, I want to tell you this that that means your mother was jewish, that means you're jewish well, there's, it's a bloodline you may not practice. You may not practice the, the faith, or identify with that. But I mean I'm saying that in terms of the requirements of conversion or being Jewish, you have to have a direct bloodline.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, this is what I find. It's a very unique situation with people that are Jewish or people that are of the Jewish faith, because my wife is Ukrainian, as an example. She is very her family. None of them have ever been of the Jewish faith. As far back as she knows, you know they came from communist Soviet Russia, right, but when she took a DNA test, she's about three to four percent Jewish. Now, jewish is a genetic marker. It is a version of us, this humanity, identify as Jewish. You cannot change that. That's a genetic part of who you are. As you said, if your mother's jewish technically.
Speaker 1:you're going to be jewish in in the literal sense, because we identify jewish in some ways as a variation of human and but we also have the jewish faith, which I like. Before we spoke, you said I, I prefer to call it the Jewish faith, and I like that because you're identifying my genetic Jewish heritage from. I choose the Jewish faith Right, and I find that to be a fascinating thing that only applies to the Jewish people. They're the only people like that.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting, it has nothing to do with being a minority. So much Because, you know, growing up I knew nothing of being a minority. You were surrounded by this right. I was surrounded by this and I grew up in the Jewish enclave of Pittsburgh called Squirrel Hill, you know, which is where Tree of Life Synagogue is, and I used to pass by on my way to school all the time. So at what point?
Speaker 1:did you leave that safe community and venture out into a community where you did become a minority in that community?
Speaker 2:When my mother dragged me, kicking and screaming, to this small city called Sarasota, florida, in 1972. 72, wow. And I had a teacher, a math teacher, who would leave these small biblical tracts on our desk. You know, these kind that say you know, be saved and all. And he literally would look at me in a way he was looking for my horns and my cloven hoofs and my tail, you know. And it got to the point where he believed he was going to save me. And, um, we actually had to have a conversation with him and a rabbi and my mother at some point to tell him that he needed to kind of find some other person to spend his energy on. And you know. So we are in the South, even though Florida is a very diverse place and that will also lead me to one place I want to go with my masonry. But we are in the South and we are very diverse in a lot of ways, but we are still, even though we are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles, we are a Christian nation.
Speaker 1:Well, I would disagree with that.
Speaker 2:Okay, and here's why.
Speaker 1:Let me just quickly say why.
Speaker 2:That's okay.
Speaker 1:That's fine. My previous host was a devout Christian and he always said things like that and I said actually we're founded on Masonic principles, our country, which is the acceptance of all faiths. We were never founded as a Christian nation. It was specifically forbidden to be a Christian nation in the founding documents. So I don't accept the premise that we are a Christian nation. I think we're a mis-.
Speaker 2:I don't accept it either. Yeah, because I'm here to learn, but at the same time I guess I was taking a generally accepted principle, but and I see your point and I agree with you and I now will I will not. I just learned something. So thank you. No, seriously, you have to remain teachable. You cannot graft new ideas on a closed mind, so I'm an open mind.
Speaker 1:The predominant religion in our country, for sure, is Christianity. No one can question that.
Speaker 2:That is a fact, and that's what I found when I moved to Florida, and it is that way. So you know there are. I visited a lodge in. I visited the Grand Lodge of New York. Have you been? I've never been to the Grand Lodge, okay, but I can. The Grand Lodge of.
Speaker 1:New York. I've been to the Grand Lodge of Philadelphia, which is pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:New York is just as impressive and I had an opportunity to meet with a brother who functions in the role of a docent. We met by appointment and he's of the Jewish faith. He invited me to a Jewish lodge that meets online to be part of, and um, there are uh, the grandmaster of the past, grandmaster of wisconsin, told me of a lodge that he uh was, is a member or was a member of in wisconsin. That was in milwaukee. That was all jewish folks. So I came into masonry not knowing much, you know, I in background wise, I don't have. I came from a broken home and my mother was busy surviving rather than and she did her best to inculcate um jewish theocracy in us. But, more importantly, we got jewish values, which are not, which are. There are so many parallels in masonry, really, I believe it.
Speaker 2:You know, you heard Just be a mensch, be a mensch, do the right thing. Be a stand-up guy who does the right thing.
Speaker 1:That's what Masonry is about. It's not immune from the same issues as other organized religions the Jewish, faith you have many different versions now of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 2:Right, you have many different versions now of the Jewish faith. Right, you have different denominations, Denominations yeah, it all started as orthodoxy right. And now there's ultra-orthodox, with groups that are the Satmar, which are in Crown Heights and Borough Park. They call them the Black Hats, right.
Speaker 2:The big black furry hats, yeah, some of the furry hats, those guys, they're from different villages, or what they call shtetls, in Eastern Europe. They have the largest sect of Orthodox Jewry is called Chabad Lubavitch, and they are a very wonderful group of individuals who are welcoming to everybody, kind of like Masonry. They welcome everybody of all Jewish denominations. They want to meet you where you live, which is my goal for Masonry to meet new Masons where they live. Yeah, right, in other words, make it, make it a welcoming place.
Speaker 2:Today we have an open house. I'll be going after this interview to the open house. We have a blood drive, we have a movie night, so we have we meet people, we get to see people there. But I wanted to make sure I touch on the other ones. And so then you've got conservative Judaism, reform Judaism, and now there are a couple of things called Humanistic Judaism and different forms, and they're really just, they're almost amalgamated blends. And then you have a sect called Messianic Judaism, which are Christian people that follow Jewish ethos. They use the Torah, they learn Hebrew, those kind of things, but they are, at their core, christians and their Savior is Jesus, which is fine. What so? How are you?
Speaker 1:still Jewish.
Speaker 2:I don't, because I think it's you are when you say you are.
Speaker 1:So I mean, to me the main difference between Christianity and Judaism is that the Christians kind of picked up the football that the Jewish left and carried it further and said here's the rest of the story. Now, this is what happened.
Speaker 2:That's one way of looking at it. That's one way of looking at it. I've never looked at that analogy. I think it's that the Kind of like even the.
Speaker 1:Scottish Rite tells us a lot of the Scottish Rite degrees talk about, after the fall of Solomon's Temple, what happened, right, right.
Speaker 2:The rest of the story right, Right but it's founded on Judaism.
Speaker 1:I mean Christians. It blows their mind when you say Jesus was a rabbi. Like he was a rabbi, I hate to tell you. He was a Jewish rabbi. That's how he lived his life.
Speaker 2:That's who he was, there was no.
Speaker 1:Christianity at the time.
Speaker 2:I think it's really interesting too, because for a couple reasons, as you know, one of the things we make a point of doing in masonry is looking for similarities and our differences. Right, yeah, so so. But what people do forget is you can have conversations in the fellowship hall about religion and politics. You can have this. You just can't have them in open lodge. This is a mistake that people make. They think that Masons can't even talk about that stuff, and that's not true. That diversity is what makes this. In terms of diversity, I have this great goal for a plan for the summer of diversity.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you or I can go right into that.
Speaker 2:Go for it. Tell me okay. Um, when I'm, we and and my article in this month's chess board, and I'm not sure if you subscribe to the phoenix do you okay? Yes, so you'll. You'll see my comments from the east I'm on a creeper.
Speaker 1:I creep on everybody's stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm watching all everything that's okay, that's what we do. All you know it all builds strength.
Speaker 1:Strength to strength I always I'm looking for the good stuff I can take and uh, you see the bad stuff to avoid learning. Yeah, that's learning.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely learning. That's that's it. But in my article it talks about how impressed I was at the grand communication, the last grand communication that PHA, Prince Hall Affiliate Masons were. We are in the process of getting to full recognition. Yeah, we're in the process there. Florida's behind the times. Nobody, nobody will, nobody in the least will will doubt you on that. Least we'll, we'll doubt you on that. A lot of other um states have full recognition and they hold common communication with prince hall as well as um, the grand lodge system we're one of, I think, four other jurisdictions that don't recognize prince hall, so we're definitely in this regard, but we're moving in that direction.
Speaker 2:And when, when it was mentioned in Grand Lodge in the Grand Communication last May that there's a beta test going on right now where some lodges had met with each other, yes, and they were welcome, it was a standing ovation, yes and an ovation. So I plan on reaching out to the deputy grandmaster, because the current grandmaster has his plate full and he's already over halfway through his year. But I plan on reaching out to the deputy grandmaster, who will be the grandmaster of Florida next year, whose theme is youth, and I'd like to see if we can hold a Masonic event this coming summer at the Robert L Taylor Youth Center which is in Newtown. I'd like to see if we can make that happen between us and the PHA, the local PHA lodge.
Speaker 1:So when you say PHA, he's talking about Prince Hall.
Speaker 2:Affiliate Prince Hall. Affiliate Prince Hall. Affiliate Prince Hall Masonry is the job in their masonry and their grandmaster. I believe his name is Most Worshipful Jeffrey Taylor, I believe that's his name, if I understand correctly. But he's very committed to working with our grandmaster now to see if we can get to that place, and we are getting there each year. I would highly imagine within two years. Truly mark my words that we will have full recognition. We will have full recognition.
Speaker 1:It's about time. We'll finally have full recognition with each other.
Speaker 2:By the time, I'm living in North Carolina, that's another thing we have in common.
Speaker 2:I've actually relocated to South Carolina and you, I think you already purchased your next home in North Carolina, right? I purchased a home in Asheville, north Carolina, and I've been to Lodge. This is great how this conversation is going, because I can now segue into attending Lodge elsewhere and how it's so important. But yes, I purchased a home in Asheville, north Carolina, with the goal of moving there. Ultimately, obviously, I won't do it when I'm in the east, and that decision came as a result of not wanting so much to leave Florida, as it was that we wanted four seasons and we wanted some topography, because I like to hike and ride my bike. Same here, and I just.
Speaker 2:Florida is a wonderful vacation spot. I'm really enjoying the weather now, the season. I mean, I was downtown last night. I went to a fantastic play at the Florida Studio Theater last night. I'll tell you offline all about it, okay, but I can just tell you that it's wonderful here during the season. The summer's more heat than I want to bear anymore. Yeah, same here. I like the mountains. The view off my back porch in North Carolina Is a beautiful view of the Appalachian Mountains, yeah, so I went to lodge there.
Speaker 1:You'll be about an hour to an hour and a half drive from where I live when you're in Asheville.
Speaker 2:So that's, we'll be getting together.
Speaker 1:We'll be getting together, yes, and I'm here and I can tell you when you wake up and you see, I see like a family of six, seven deers just grazing in my yard every morning. It's a different life than what you have in Florida. For sure, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:So you went to Lodge in Nashville right, I wanted to go to Lodge in Nashville and my understanding, when you go domestically I'm not sure about the letter, but I'll talk about international in a moment but so I contacted Lodges and I saw there's a saw there's probably better than a dozen lodges around the western North Carolina area, maybe even more, in Buncombe County, which is where Asheville is located. So I reached out and wanted to go and found that I wasn't getting anybody to get back to me on the schedule. So I reached out to Grand Lodge and through some emails back and forth I was able to finally connect and I attended the Biltmore Lodge. And Biltmore Lodge is located physically in a building that used to be a church, that was on the property of the Cornelius Vanderbilt who built the whole area, and then that lodge has been in that building since 1953. And that lodge has been around for a long, long time and they have not recycled a master since 1930. There you go, strong.
Speaker 1:That shows strength. That's a strong lodge, yeah, and I learned a master since 1930. There you go, strong. That shows strength. That's a strong lodge, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I learned a lot from them. I did some things. I was really impressed when I first went in. They didn't know me from Adam, so they took my dues card and they took me in a side room and they had me provide due guards and signs. They tried you, they tried me, they absolutely tried me and I passed the Masonic trial. You were not denied, I was not denied and I was admitted, given entry. And then a couple of things I noticed on top of it, and I am obviously careful because I don't know. Your podcast is open to the public, so I won't violate it.
Speaker 1:This is for the public, yes, so be careful.
Speaker 2:Right, I will, of course, of course. So I wanted to make sure that everybody who was present was indeed a master mason and they went through a process of making sure that was happening. It's called purging. Purging is what they do in lodges was indeed a master mason and they went through a process of making sure that was happening. It's.
Speaker 1:it's called purging, purging is what they do in lodges making sure everyone present are actual masons before the actual before they had for the beating starts in the business and they did that.
Speaker 2:They did that in a way that was very impressed. It's not done that I've seen in our lodge in florida. Um, they did other things that were very impressive too. They were able to do a uh moving in between the different levels of masonry within the same meeting and, uh, you know, uh, examining people for their proficiency and those kind of things.
Speaker 2:All that done in the span of an hour wow and I think the most impressive part was after it was over. We had dessert and coffee, and so I have changed it in my lodge that the dessert is after the meeting. It is not before the meeting.
Speaker 1:We've always done that at Sarasota Lodge and it definitely affords a whole different vibe, because most people leave, for sure, but there are a group of people that just when you hang out and have those after-lodge conversations, it's really awesome.
Speaker 2:Really awesome fellowship, right exactly. We do something else also at Phoenix. Which is interesting is that we in the agenda it's called Good and Welfare, but we, after the gavel closing gavel, we circle up, we all hold hands and we look to the left and we tell the person one thing we appreciate about them. And that circle goes around and you walk away going, you know it's something and remember we're diverse. I like that, it's a good thing, we enjoy it.
Speaker 2:It's important to say that you're doing that after the state of communication You're not altering the court of work or anything like that Right right, no, exactly, and it can be after the gavel drops, and it can also be sometimes meetings are contentious and sometimes there's personalities involved and it's a good way to clear the slate yeah, right, yeah. The other thing, the thing I was really impressed by in North Carolina was they did that circle up, but the senior deacon, rather than have that thing where you look to your left and tell each person what you thought of them, the senior deacon recited the closing charge by memory. And you know, so we, yeah. So that was I was pretty impressed.
Speaker 1:Do they level the lodge like we do or do they level it like they do up north at the end, where everyone comes down?
Speaker 2:essentially no they do it like we do. It's leveled. It's not the same way. That's AF and AM. I noticed something also that they have a different system of communication between the people inside the room and outside the room, those kind of things. I know what you mean. I'm sure that where you are now and where I will be, it's that way. But I was also going to tell you about international travel. Could I tell you about that?
Speaker 1:Well, you, just talked about, like domestically. One of the great benefits of being a Master Mason is that you can travel anywhere in the world and go to any recognized lodge by your jurisdiction and sit as a brother in that lodge. And so you've done that. Domestically is what he's saying, which means he's gone to other states within the continental US and visited those lodges. But you've also gone internationally and visited lodges in other countries as a Mason.
Speaker 2:Yes, I have, I have Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Where were you?
Speaker 2:We were planning a trip to go to Africa.
Speaker 1:You weren't going to go on a safari, were you?
Speaker 2:Well, we went on a game ride in the Chobe National Forest and it was the most incredible experience of my life. It was up there in the top ten. Did you actually stick out at the bush?
Speaker 1:overnight.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. We went for a ride from 6 in the morning until about 1 in the afternoon. It was up there with visiting Angkor Wat in Cambodia. Wow, it was right up there.
Speaker 2:Anyway, the way it's done in Florida is, in order to be able to be a traveling man is, in order to be able to be a traveling man, in order to be able to visit elsewhere where they don't know you, you have to go to your secretary and ask your secretary to seek a letter of introduction. So that letter of introduction comes from the Grand Lodge and it is signed by the Grand Secretary and given to you. So for those brothers that want to do such a thing, don't rely, when you're traveling internationally, on the strength of your dues card alone. That's not going to be necessarily the right thing to do. So get that letter. So that process you want to start at least two or three weeks before disembarking on your trip. You want to start at least two or three weeks before disembarking on your trip. So I reached out and was put in touch with the secretary of Lodge in Cape Town, south Africa, and I reached out and I submitted my letter and then I received a summons to appear in Lodge. Oh, they gave you a summons.
Speaker 1:They gave me a summons.
Speaker 2:Fascinating, yep. They gave me a summons to appear in Lodge. Oh, they gave you a summons. They gave me a summons, fascinating, yep. They gave me a summons and I didn't really have a lot of dress clothes with me so I think I had to borrow a jacket. Now when I travel, if I intend to visit Lodge, I carry a suit with me. I've learned that lesson. But anyway, that night it was a similar thing that happened to phoenix lodge. It was the uh, the, the uh consolidation of two lodges. So it was the installation that night of the new master. So the brass was there from all the, the grand lodges. There was a representative of the GLE, the Grand Lodge of England was there from London, there was representatives from the Grand Lodge of Ireland, grand Lodge of South Africa, so there was four. You know. There was bagpipes, there was a kilt, there was a person wearing a kilt, there was gauntlets on the arms. It was pretty special, yeah, those gauntlets on the arms.
Speaker 1:It was pretty special.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those gauntlets were awesome. Yeah, it was pretty special. So this is an incredible building. They have an almaner, they have an assistant tiler, they have an assistant secretary, they have a lot of officers I never heard of and the lodge room is beautiful. I don't know if you ever saw the article I sent Chris, but I'll send you the link. I can find it in my pictures, my visit to the lodge, but anyway, I haven't seen that. I'll show you the picture. It's wonderful because it's an old building that has been around since 17-something and it's right where Parliament is, right on the grounds of Parliament, basically In Cape Town.
Speaker 1:South.
Speaker 2:Africa In Cape Town. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we had and a few other lodges meet there and I took a lot of pictures. I'll make a point of doing that, getting you those. But I went there and they welcomed me and I kind of wound up with like a mentor that evening who I kind of palled around with. But I saw some really impressive things. I saw the you know, the chamber where they prepare candidates which was just incredible. We'll talk offline when we're done about how neat this was, but I saw the.
Speaker 1:Speaking of that chamber that you're talking about, stephen Garcia and I have drafted legislation that has been submitted to Grand Lodge in due form and in due time, that hopefully will be read at our next annual Grand Communication, to allow lodges to choose to perform the Chamber of Reflection on Entered Apprentices or not.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:And so it gives some guidance and the Brothers of Florida will have the opportunity to vote on that and I'm really hoping that it's received favorably, because the Grand Lodge is not in favor of it, so it's going to take all the Brothers voting on it to get that to pass.
Speaker 2:But I suspected you may be talking about something along the lines of chamber I am, I am, and this chamber reflection reminded me of a, uh, of a bank vault. The door was. The door was built in 17 something, the door literally, and it was about uh 18 inches thick and it was a round room that would be lit only by candles.
Speaker 1:It was a pretty incredible space that would be typical of a chamber of reflection, and then there would be certain things present that would make you really focus your attentions on certain aspects that Freemasonry wants to focus your attention on.
Speaker 2:The intent behind that, for those that don't know, is basically to get in the right headspace prior to being initiated a mason or raised as a master mason. So, um, I saw that and the, the, uh, the uh. Anybody who goes in there can learn about the masonic furniture, so certain the things that we're used to in the lodge. The symbols were in there and they were beautiful. The flooring was beautiful, the organ was gorgeous. It was just a really lovely, lovely lodge and we enjoyed it and I'm not really understanding. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2:So they, they, you know I'm I was telling myself to bring levity to the situation, but you know they asked for there was, there was fellows of the craft there, there was entered apprentices and they were all retired. And then they asked the only people who should stay are masters, and I thought they meant master masons, sitting masters, and what they meant was people who were actual worshipful masters should stay. So I wound up staying in a meeting and when they found out I was not a sitting master actual worshipful master should stay. So I wound up staying in a meeting and they, they, they. When they found out I was not a sitting master, a couple people were cross and uh, and the guy next to me said don't worry, you can't unring a bell, right? Yeah, so so it's not. You know, it's not like you're gonna go and tell things, but you know was there, then we had terribly secret in there.
Speaker 1:Did you feel like you got some kind of no okay, no, just a traditional thing, then not just traditional thing.
Speaker 2:But then then, after that, we went into the chamber next door, which was where they served a meal, and what was amazing was, um, it was almost like a table lunch at that point, because there was a whole lot of toasts with alcohol and I never understood the term. They'd'd say gentlemen, be upstanding. I was like what? I already am upstanding. No, everybody gets up. And they stand up. Oh, you know, right, nice. They'd say gentlemen, be upstanding. And then they'd hit it, and then everybody up there, and then they'd toast, and you know, we all had shepherd's pie. They offered Guinness stout, which I don't drink, so I didn't drink the stout, but it was great.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a primer slot for your pepper's pie and Guinness drinks.
Speaker 2:It was really interesting, though, because I had taken the Grandmaster's pin to present to the new Grandmaster, because, actually, the Grandmaster of South Africa was there and I was presenting a pin to him from our Grand Master at the time. Wow, I kept wanting to be a stand-up and do my thing. They fit me in. I was the very last person right before the Tyler's Oath. By this time everybody was quite happy. They were all quite toasty. I'm standing there giving this pin to the people that were oh thanks you know it's good that they warmed.
Speaker 2:They warmed the crowd up for you before they warmed the crowd to the tune of about an hour and a half of toasts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I was uh so my last uh recording session was yesterday and I recorded with j, with Jeremy Barnes, to create a Viamity app and people have heard that before this. So hopefully you listen regularly and I can tell you that, if you don't, I asked him to leave us with something Masonic not talking about tech or any of that, just like as a Mason and he talked about this before.
Speaker 1:His one thing was please travel, please get outside your lodge and travel. And here you are praising the experiences you've had in travel as a Mason. You're literally speaking to his point, which is Masonry doesn't happen in state of communications, in your lodge. Masonry happens out in the world, when you're traveling and in your interactions with people you've never met, and showing love and Kindness to these people and learning their ways, tolerance and appreciation, respect for our fraternity, wherever it may be, in whatever form it takes, right.
Speaker 2:And there's another benefit also of traveling, which is when we are indeed distressed. I was going to I'm in the insurance adjusting business and I was headed to a storm in Texas.
Speaker 1:You were headed to what?
Speaker 2:A storm in Texas. A storm, well, because I'm an insurance adjuster.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:We work storms, we work storms. And so I was heading to a storm in Texas and there was no place to stay. So I called a local lodge and I had a lodge brother offer me either a place in his home or he knew somebody who had a hotel. They can get me a hotel. Another time I was in the hospital in Asheville and the insurance company was deciding how long I could stay and I wasn't ready to go yet and my flight wasn't until the next day. So I had a mason come pick me up and take me to the airport wheelchair and all Wow, I never knew this guy. I wouldn't know him if I saw him today, so you know.
Speaker 2:So we are our best helpers. If you, you know, are in a situation, you can always call a lodge and ask Now, you know they can definitely help you. If you need things when you're traveling and you don't know people, it's really nice. Help you. If you need things when you're traveling and you don't know people, it's really nice. I've had Masons, you know, help me out before and I will help them out any time I come to their. You know their awareness, you know Whether they're distressed or not. I'm happy to help a Mason whenever I can. I mean that's as we started in the beginning of the interview. I told you I'm a giving person. I like to help.
Speaker 1:That's something that people say and hear all the time, like I'm happy to help. I'm happy to help, but when you say it and you're a Mason, it's something different. You know last year and you're going to experience it this year as the master. They contact you when someone passes away to arrange funeral services, and so I had the opportunity to talk to many Masonic widows last year, and something I impressed upon every single one was listen, we are here for you now. The way that we show our love for our brother is to support you. This is a tenant of our fraternity, and so it would be our honor if you would call us if you need your lawn mowed, if you need your groceries picked up for you, if there's anything we can do. We're waiting for an opportunity to show our brother how much we love him by helping you. And so when you say I'm happy to do it, you mean you're happy to do it. You want an opportunity to show your love through an act of service to somebody.
Speaker 2:That's true humility, and when you want to serve somebody else, there can be no agenda. What do you hope to get in return other than there's nothing? There's a thing in Judaism that talks about. There's a term called a mitzvah. You ever heard of the term of a mitzvah? I am familiar with this. A mitzvah is a heard the term. I am familiar with this. Yeah, a mitzvah is a good deed, and there's, there's uh over 600 of them, and one of the highest ones you can do is um, to be buried in the manner of um, uh anonymity, which is important in the Jewish faith. That's why they talk about a plain pine casket. They talk about being buried in a shroud, being washed the people that wash you are called the Hevra Kedisha, and that is the society of friends. And when you are doing that act of humility of washing your fellow deceased brother with others while prayers are being said, you're doing something for that person that he cannot repay you. There's no way he can repay you. So that is the ultimate act of brotherly love.
Speaker 1:You're doing it for somebody.
Speaker 2:I love that, and so, if we carry that into masonry, a lot of faiths do ritual washing prior to burial. The Native Americans did, the Muslims do, the Hindus do, the Jews do, I don't know if other faiths do or not, but all I can say is that that act of humility, that act of service, and we can do that in masonry. Today, for instance, I'm going to do something of service that can't be repaid. I'm going to donate blood. I haven't donated blood in years. We have the blood mobile at our lodge. As soon as we're done with the interview, I'm leaving, and once I eat something I don't want to faint, but that's the way we give back. So masons give back, we do. I eat something I don't want to faint. That's the way we give back. Masons give back Brothers. We need to continue to do that, because it is through giving that we receive only.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:If you want to keep it, you've got to give it away.
Speaker 1:That's the deal. People like to say masonry takes good men and makes them better. Uh, I, I always have told people my take on free masonry is that it provides men the tools to make themselves better if they choose to use them. Because that's a more accurate description of free masonry. Uh, it's true, one of the quickest ways to improve yourself is doing things for other people that don't involve you benefiting from them. That's how we improve as people is learning humility. Honestly, it is a big part of becoming a better person. This is where the confusion of charity and Freemasonry comes in, because Freemasonry isn't a charity. We aren't a 5013C, we're not an official charity, we aren't a 5013C right, right, we're not an official charity.
Speaker 1:We're a fraternity, which is different than a charity.
Speaker 2:We fall under the 5013C in Florida. The Masonic Charity is Florida, but that's for charitable purposes. But we are considered a fraternity, a charitable fraternity.
Speaker 1:So we're not a charity in the sense that this is our driving purpose. But our driving purpose, but our driving purpose being to make good men better. You can't do that without acts of charity and that's why Freemasonry is well known for its charity, because it's just a part of our system of making good men better and charity. The lowest form of charity is giving your money. The highest form is giving your time, because you can't get that back. Like you said, right, you can get money back. You can always make more money because you can't get that back. Like you said, right, you can get money back.
Speaker 2:you can always make more money, but you can't make more time, right exactly that's exactly right, so that that that that's, that's a, that's a perfect, uh, perfect way to uh to wrap it up well we're not wrapping up.
Speaker 1:Yet now we got it. We're an hour and 20 in and we do need to. You know I, I know I don't. I want to be respectful of your time, but the last.
Speaker 2:I do have one more question for you that I wanted to ask you, so I'm assuming this part will get edited out. No, no, no, no, no. This set, this set right here okay, we keep it real man.
Speaker 1:My guess you try to get away.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna pull you back in. No, no, no, no. This is. You're listening to chris and mark.
Speaker 1:My question for you is uh, my, my goals. And when I joined the fraternity and I saw how what I saw in the beginning was I want to become the master of a lodge and I want to do this my way and and I did those things and now I'm satisfied. I have no desire to seek any further officer positions or titles in the fraternity. I now am going to be the podcast guy and the traveling man. That's my role in Freemasonry. But what are your goals in Masonry Now that you're the Worshipful Master? For some people, this is just the beginning of their Masonic Journal, because they have many other goals. So what are yours? I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Well, over the years I thought to myself. I thought would I like to be a district deputy grandmaster or would I like to join the grand line? And I've spent more time now going. Masonry has worked for me in the sense that it's helped make me a better man, and so I want other things in my life. I want to go back to my writing, because I'm a writer Same here, and so I also don't desire further office.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've already in the corporate world. When you get the tap or the nod which is like would you like to go up the ladder? I've had that happen in the corporate world. When you get the tap or the nod which is like would you like to go up the ladder I've had that happen in the corporate world. I've actually had that happen in the Masonic world. I was asked at Grand Lodge if I'm free to travel with the Grandmaster's party and I turned them down. I know they look for capable people who are at a place in their life, but I also realized that, you know, at a different time in my life I would have been so honored and, yeah, I'll do it, no matter what. I wouldn't have thought of the consequences. Well, I like my marriage, you know.
Speaker 1:So you know it's funny. You say that we have a Mason in our district. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Wright Worshipful Ron Baber. I am very well.
Speaker 2:Okay, so Wright, worshipful. I saw him recently at the installation in Peace River Lodge 66.
Speaker 1:He was the installing marshal, yes, and he's good. He's good. Well, I formed a competition degree team to compete this year at the state level and, uh, after much convincing right worshipful on, ron baber came out of retirement. He is a what he calls a retired mason. He doesn't go to lodge, he doesn't participate in masonic things, but he came out because he really believes that. Well, he, he wanted to help my Masonic career. He didn't know that I didn't want to pursue a traditional Masonic career, but I was honored that he was willing to come out to help me. And what he told me one afternoon after practice, when we were sitting quietly together, was Chris, I have to be really careful because my wife has been a Masonic widow for too long. She deserves better than that, because he was an incredibly active Mason. He won competitions, he was a right worshipful district, he did it all. But that comes at a cost and I and you aren't willing necessarily to pay the price.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not, Because, if you think about it, one of the goals, one of the takeaways of Masonry should be balance.
Speaker 1:Balance correct.
Speaker 2:And that goes in all life. I've been invited to be installed, not installed, initiated Eastern Star. So I will this week, I'll be initiated Eastern Star this week. I will this week, I'll be initiated Eastern Star this week.
Speaker 1:Is your wife going to join you?
Speaker 2:She was given the opportunity and she's declined. So I'm doing it really more to support the Eastern Star. I know there's things to learn from it and given the fact that and I've seen plenty it's the only Masonic-appendant body that's co-ed, yes, and given the fact that the and I've seen plenty it's it's the only masonic appendant body that's co-ed, yes, you know, and um uh given the fact that we are going states.
Speaker 1:That's true, pardon me. In the united states that's the case.
Speaker 2:It's the only, only co-ed masonic body that exists here for us in the states so I am, uh, they know that I'm moving and you know, and, given the fact that my focus now is entirely on Blue Lodge because I'm a member of all bodies, but, at the same time, my my efforts on scottish right, yes, I, I find the learning incredible. I know that you are also scottish right as well and, um, I find and it would be a neat goal to read morals and dogma in my life, if I can.
Speaker 2:It's pretty tough stuff yeah but, um, but I, I, really I. When I heard that scottish right was the, the University of Mason, the College of Masonry, you know that, that that that lit me up with something. Let me say one thing. I also want to tell you that, that about how I operate as a Mason, which has taught me something. We all have heard for years how the Masons were always the who's, who of the community right, they were always the somebody's, the founders of this country, etc.
Speaker 2:I always look at the character on Monopoly games, the little mayor, the little portly mayor with his tuxedo on. You know, like that. I think of that. And then my late mother-in-law gave me a 19. It was either, I think it was a 1904 or 1914 monitor from the state of Iowa or Illinois or something like that. And I read it. They were the who's, who's. They were even in their speech, mannerism, actions and writing. So one thing I've taken away from that is I don't make excuses for using words that are difficult to understand. I don't do it on purpose, because I won't dumb down how I talk for anybody. I'd rather them say brother, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Lift that up to your level, yeah lift them up, you know, and I'm not doing that to be snobby or intellectual or an elite, I'm not doing that. I'm doing that because if we are Masons, we are supposed to be examples and rhetoric are two very important things to masons. Exactly, exactly. So that's why I try to use that in my writing. I use it in my writing, I use it in my discussions, you know, using Colgate rather than drill into my head. That's a word I learned from Freemasonry.
Speaker 1:I heard it so many times that I Googled it and I said, oh, that's what it means. What oh drill? No. Yeah, well that's what it means, drill through repetition Inculcate.
Speaker 2:Right, right Drilling it in through repetition, exactly so you learn.
Speaker 1:And for those that don't know, we know we're not a sect and we're not a cult. It's just we have a culture, not a cult. We have a culture. It is a beautiful culture of love, acceptance and really accumulating as much knowledge as you can as a man.
Speaker 2:And I love your brother. That's right, you love me. We're buddies. Love your brother.
Speaker 1:I want to tell you this because you are on this podcast and I haven't been interviewing a lot of local masons that write worship roles or huge titles. You're probably the first and let me tell you why. I moved out of state and I know you're moving out of state. When I told people I was moving out of state, I discovered who my friends were and who I had transactional relationships with, and it became glaringly obvious who associated with you because they thought they could get something from you and who just wants to be a brother and that's really the goal of their relationship with you is to be a brother. You quickly showed yourself to be a brother to me and then I discovered later that you were moving yourself and I wanted to prepare you that as that information comes to light, don't be disappointed, because you'll. It's good to discover who you have real relationships with and who who you have transactional relationships with, and that will come to light as they find out that you're leaving and that you can't benefit their career as directly as they could.
Speaker 2:That's true, it was. I was somebody whispered by his counsel at one point and said well, you know, play it down, because nobody's going to want to work for you. And I'm like, nobody works for me anyway, I work for them.
Speaker 1:But more importantly, Whoever said that to you is the exact person I'm talking about. It's the kind of person that has a mentality of transactional relationships.
Speaker 2:Right. I've been blessed in my life to have also what are called time and space relationships. You may know what those are, but like, for instance, when you go back to wherever you came from upstate New York and you happen to chat with. You know there are certain friends I have. Give an example my chiropractor. My chiropractor, I went to high school with right and I was over at Robarts Arena one day for a health fair. I was just going through and I ran into him and it's like the 40 years that we didn't talk to each other never existed. That's great. We picked right up.
Speaker 2:So I do have some time and space, friends that I wouldn't see, them pretend. I mean, I've got friends right now in Alaska from when I lived up in Alaska years ago, that I could just go to their house and have dinner, and it's just like yesterday. It's like yesterday you know what this brings to memory at dinner, and it's just like yesterday.
Speaker 1:It's like yesterday. You know what this brings to memory. This is another moment with Worshipful Mark Tishman that I've never told him but I'm going to share now because it impacted not just me but other people. We started getting asked to do a lot of Masonic education discussions, that we discussed Masonry openly on this podcast and people in our local area started saying can you come and do that Because we want to have those kind of discussions?
Speaker 1:And you were at a Master Mason Association meeting where we were having a Masonic discussion and you said something quite. It made me think of things in a different way, which doesn't happen often and it sticks out in my mind. We were talking about brotherhood, as we are now, and you said out of the blue you know, you have to be careful because we have a tendency to, when we like someone, we say I like this about you or that about you and what we're ultimately saying is I like you because you're like me Exactly and what should be more important, is I, you for you? That should be our focus, right? Maybe you could elaborate on that point, because it really sure in that discussion I think you raised a lot of eyebrows and made people think sure, um, the whole thing about, um, differences you can always focus in any group.
Speaker 2:You can focus your energy on your differences or your similarities right, because you can be a part of or a part from. You want to sit as if you're. You want to sit there as if you're. You know you don't fit in. You can focus on that or you can feel like you're part of the group. I learned that working in the corporate world when my boss went to lunch with one of my colleagues and I sat at my cubicle or desk being upset and victimized that they didn't take me. And then later he said to me this is how it works. How it works is you walk up to us at 11.20 and say where are we going to lunch today?
Speaker 2:Okay, right, how it works is you walk up to us at 1120 and say where are we going to lunch today? Okay, right, so. Or where you know where is everybody going, and then you make the assumption that you're that, you're that, you're included, you're being, you're included, so it's the same thing. So when you say I like your, I think what it is is.
Speaker 2:It's very, very easy to, especially now in our society, with what's going on in this country, with the fraction, it's very easy to look at the other as the enemy, and it's unfortunate that this is where masonry is not completely self imploded because of the rule of no religion and politics. If that wasn't there, we'd have a lot fewer lodges, I'm sure. Oh yeah, so at this moment, at this moment in time in history, there are people that I would not normally hang out with right in my lodge, but I hang out because we're brothers. You're a different story. I hang out with you because I like you and I like you because you're like me, because I know we're breaking our own rules here man, that's okay.
Speaker 2:But, more importantly, I would just tell you this. I would just tell you that that, um, this concept of of being like somebody just means that you, you don't see them as the other. Yeah, it's not that you're like me so much, as that whole obstacle piece isn't in there, that whole security piece isn't in there. And just also, when people change in their life, because we are human beings, we're like plants, we change People. You could say I no longer like that person, and it may not be because you moved away or whatever. It just means that they've gone down a path that doesn't resonate with you anymore and therefore you choose not to invest your energy in that relationship in the same way you did. I think that's the safest way to say it yeah, that's a kind way of saying it yes.
Speaker 2:You know, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:And I mean it's a good we need to think about these things, Because this is part of us improving ourselves is to recognize who we are as a people, Because some of us, we all have biases that we can't really help. It's just part of being a human being.
Speaker 2:It comes back from our agrarian days, when you would I mean right now, where I live, you talk about the deer right in your yard. Okay, where I live in Asheville, there's black bears. Right, black bears are the other. I am the other to them, right? I walk outside. We're not going up and saying, hey, buddy, want to come over for dinner. They'll go, I'll come over for dinner. I'll be happy to come over for dinner. I'll be happy to come over there with my four inch claws. Yeah, sure, I'll be happy to come over for dinner. You know, um, only your meal, right? Exactly, exactly. So so the the point I'm making is that there are plenty of the other out there, and the challenge in masonry and which is the opportunity as well as the challenge is to have all these, the others, become our brothers as opposed to our others.
Speaker 1:I like that. I just made it up. Well, you know, you're, this is a, this is why we have a group of different people. You're, you're a little older than me. You've you've taken more trips around the sun, you've had more experiences with than I have have, and so you've accumulated a certain amount of wisdom and you pass that on to people. Uh, so that I don't have to, maybe I can learn that lesson without having to learn have the painful experiences. You had to get to that point, you know I would.
Speaker 2:I'm coming as a as as a uh current sitting master and I will join your group of past masters. We can always say what do you do? I mean? Perhaps people even in this podcast would not have known how to travel internationally had I not sent about the letter and the secretary.
Speaker 1:You'll be amazed at how many things you've said today will resonate and people needed to hear that at this moment in their life. Said today will resonate and people needed to hear that at this moment in their life. I'm always surprised at the things people take away from this podcast and, uh, we do it because of that. People need to hear things and they need to feel like they're not alone. Um, that's great. They need positive reinforcement about the fraternity and that's why, although we both had negative experiences I think we both we didn't even have to have the conversation. Neither one of us wants to focus on those negative experiences. We want to focus on they're not productive.
Speaker 1:How can we help? What can we do to talk about the future?
Speaker 2:And I said going into my year, I said at an officer's meeting I say all the time and I learned this from Right Worshipful Tom Haber. He said Tom's Tom Haber. He said that people, he's Tom's good guy, he's good people. You know he's one of the most humble servants, I know he's a great man and a great Mason, and.
Speaker 1:God willing we can convince them to get into the grand East at some point.
Speaker 2:That would be neat. You know what I mean. But anyway he, he taught me that when people are going to come at you all day long with problems and he said, don't come up with a problem unless you have a solution in the other hand, that's right. Otherwise, I'm a sounding. Otherwise, all I am is a sounding, you're just bitching.
Speaker 1:If you don't come up with a solution, you're just bitching, exactly.
Speaker 2:There's no point in just bitching, you better think about it before you come up with a problem, exactly. There's no point in just bitching. You better think about it before you come to that problem Exactly. I mean and what's your solution? And I've practiced it already, even with people that I don't necessarily get along, and I said that, and I said what's your solution? And the person, sure enough, came back with three solutions.
Speaker 1:Beautiful.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:You taught them to think before, before they speak, which is an important part of being a better man okay, here's what's going to happen? Uh, we're over an hour and a half in now, so I understand I have to tighten loose. You can't, I can't, keep you forever, uh, I I do appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Well, if you were, if your wife and you were making breakfast, I'd be there in a second and I will come.
Speaker 1:I can smell it and that is part of the reason I want to go. We're both early birds and so we got up early and started recording before my wife woke up. But I've heard her preparing something up there and I can smell it a little bit. But I do want to say thank you for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate it for being invited.
Speaker 1:Yes, no it's our honor to have you here and I really want to give you the opportunity here at the end to speak to uh masons throughout the world who might be listening to this podcast. Uh, you know, you're now the master of your lodge in sarasota. You're a 60 something year old man. Uh, at this point in your life and, uh, you you know, what would you like to share on the way out with those Masons out there listening, just the everyday Mason who's not maybe even an officer in his lodge, he's just a Mason. What would you share for that brother out there? And I'm going to do this so you have time to think.
Speaker 2:And here comes the wisdom. Okay, remember that what you learn in the lodge is not just to be carried in lodge. In other words, you're not there just to be on your best behavior. You're going to carry what you learn out into your life, into the world, and that is how you will make the world a better place. As my grandmother, love is like sunshine there's always plenty to go around.
Speaker 1:Very good. I appreciate the wisdom. Very important message for Masons Free Masonry in your Blue Lodge is training wheels for life. Take the training wheels off and go right off into the sunset as a mason out in the world. Uh, right now the world needs you. So thank you, brother worshipful master, for coming on the podcast and, uh, hopefully this won't be the last time we have you on. I'd love to have you on again once you're done with your journey in the east. I know you're busy this year. I won't bother you, but I'd sure like to talk after you've been out of the East about your year and how it feels to no longer have the burden.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. It's been a privilege and an honor to be here and I look forward to being back and look forward to seeing you before then. All right, all right, thank you.
