On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Interview with R∴ W∴ Barry D Hart: Leadership, Fraternity, and Life's Unseen Threads
When the final gavel sounded, marking the end of my term as president at the Master Mason Association, it wasn't just an office I was leaving—it was a chapter full of growth, challenges, and the occasional lodge drama that acted as our collective "training wheels for life." This fittingly sets the stage for our latest episode, where we peel back the curtains on the world of Freemasonry, discussing everything from the profound to the hilariously mundane. As we wade through the intricacies of leadership and the quest for Masonic knowledge, we're joined by a special guest whose legend in Ultimate Frisbee is as mischievous as it is unfounded, reminding us that our pasts often have a funny way of informing our present.
Shifting gears, our conversation takes a more athletic turn as we draw parallels between the camaraderie found on the Frisbee field and within the Masonic brotherhood. Sports, much like Freemasonry, teach us the value of perseverance and leadership. Whether discussing the physical toll of high-level competition or the importance of the past masters in guiding the current ones, the analogies are striking. And let's not forget the impact of our canine companions' surprising prowess in the field of disk catching—a lighter moment that underscores the joy found in unexpected places.
Wrapping up, we tackle the robust threads of Masonry, from the esteemed 33rd degree in the Scottish Rite to the powerful connections with faith, and the responsibilities that bind us as members of this global fraternity. Stories from across the world, including a touching encounter in Nassau, Bahamas, emphasize the unique bond shared amongst Masons. Whether discussing the challenges of leadership, the importance of personal accountability, or the need to adapt in a world that's rapidly changing, this episode is a tapestry of experiences that celebrates the enduring strength of the Masonic brotherhood.
Hey, chris, yeah, fred, what's a Mason?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question, fred.
Speaker 1:You've reached the Internet's home for all things masonry. Join Chris and I as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft, from the common gavel to the trowel. Nothing is off the table, so grab your tools and let's get to work. This is on the level. Oh my gosh, we're back. Yeah, rebel, yeah, we can't, we cannot live without the rebel. Yeah, I believe last night the rebel yell was called for during poor guy.
Speaker 2:Some someone called for the rebel. Yeah, poor people. Because one guy was like everyone was like what?
Speaker 1:do what? Don't do it here.
Speaker 3:We did it. We did it.
Speaker 1:We did it. What did where? What were we doing last night, chris? I can't remember.
Speaker 2:We had the last master mason association meeting here in district twenty three. Wait Last one For the year.
Speaker 1:You were not ever. You were president, weren't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my goodness, so that means you're not president anymore.
Speaker 3:Oh, how's that feel Really good.
Speaker 2:Really good, the best gavel drop I think I gave all year. What's the one at the?
Speaker 1:end You've got a couple of gavel. Final gavel drops coming.
Speaker 2:They're all pretty quickly, are they? Oh yeah, it's just the one left.
Speaker 1:The one left, the wonderful master one, yeah, ok, yeah, that's kind of a big one.
Speaker 2:There's still a jury's out if I can make it to that one, but we're going to try.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a few people, kind of you know, working on your demise out there. So yeah, nah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a futile effort.
Speaker 1:That's a futile not going anywhere. Baby, bring it on.
Speaker 2:Like a virus. Keep coming back.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right so how goes? Did I just cut you off?
Speaker 2:I was just going to say. We got asked by our district instructor to do the education a little bit last night.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what I love about. This is easy. It's not like we ever have to make anything up.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:We're having some drama in our lodge and we're like, hey, we have drama in our lodge, you have drama in your lodge. Why don't we talk about it? Right, that's right, that's simple, and that's what we did.
Speaker 1:And we kind of just talked a little bit about, you know, the tools that we have in this craft to deal with drama, right, I mean, that's the main thing, and why don't we, you know why don't? Oh, and the other thing is is let's not forget the premise that brother Sean Cooney kind of threw our way, that we tried to develop a little bit. And that is what if the drama in the house is part of the design?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, so that we can learn. That's why we're all doing it, we're all experiencing it.
Speaker 1:That's it, man. It's training wheels for life. Training wheels for life. Deal with it in the house. I like that, and then when you go out of the house, you're not such an ass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hopefully hopefully, hopefully ask your wife. That's right.
Speaker 1:Well, I got to say I am. I am thrilled that we do have a guest. We do this morning Get out. Yes, he is the national, the national, he is a national champion of ultimate frisbee.
Speaker 2:Oh, you went back. Actually, you've heard us talk about this person.
Speaker 1:A lot, almost every body. Yeah, we're, we're fanboys.
Speaker 2:And that's why we've been begging him to come on the show. He finally relented and here he is.
Speaker 1:Here he is, right, right, where's for heart. Thank you for coming.
Speaker 3:It is, it is.
Speaker 1:It is our honor to have you. So tell us a little bit about your career as an ultimate frisbee champion, please, that's why, you're here.
Speaker 4:Let's be very clear here my last ultimate game was at least 24 years ago.
Speaker 1:Wait, I've been, I've been lied to. You lied to me. I did. I just wanted to see this happen.
Speaker 2:This is magic.
Speaker 4:I was playing in my 40s, but that's crazy Than that now 25 years ago it was a big deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, is it the kind of?
Speaker 1:is it the kind of frisbee where you got the the goals, or is that frisbee?
Speaker 2:golf, no, no, it's the soccer with a disc yes.
Speaker 1:Soccer with a disc, ok, but there's another one where there's, like these, cages throughout the you play like golf.
Speaker 3:I think that's frisbee golf OK.
Speaker 4:So that's not this is ultimate.
Speaker 1:Frisbee is like soccer with frisbee. I got you OK, ok, I think I've seen that play like in college campuses and stuff. It's a good game. Yeah, running game, running game. So that can't be bad.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, which is why I don't play anymore, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. You would think that by the sound of it it's no big deal, but I actually used to work with like five ultimate frisbee players. One of them was on the pro Jacksonville Canons team at the time. Those guys, bodies, are banged up.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that right.
Speaker 2:Like 25 year olds. When you think they were playing professional, like sumo wrestling?
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 2:My knees blown out. My leg cracks whenever I move it in this direction.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Jeez, you're 25 man. You're playing frisbee.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:What are you doing? It's a high contact sport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anytime you get zero padding.
Speaker 2:They're running full speed, right yeah, my diving.
Speaker 1:I raised my sons in soccer in Southern California sorry, southern California in in Colorado, and they played competitively. So we traveled all over the country to play no, no, this is just soccer, because ultimate frisbee is soccer with a frisbee, as we've already covered. So we were at a real high level of soccer play in the competitive world and all of the coaches were professional soccer players. One of them was Rob Lip, who was a real famous. He was at the Colorado Avalanche and a super talented kid, but at 27 years old he could barely walk.
Speaker 2:Oh geez.
Speaker 1:He could barely walk man, because the level of play is so high and so competitive that these guys just and he was playing, since he was, you know, five years old.
Speaker 2:This this guy, you know. My question is is he getting paid?
Speaker 1:Oh, he got paid real well.
Speaker 2:And then, it's worth it to give up the body if you're making millions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he did real well actually, he. He got a contract to play for them. He played, he played out his contract, secured a ton of money and then ended up working for a really famous insurance group and his name is kind of like that. Yeah, no, he's actually an insurance broker now and he, he's just making, you know, gobs of money in the Denver market and, smart kid you know. But you know, at 27 years old he could barely walk. That was my point. I don't know how we got on that trail. Can we find another trail to get down?
Speaker 4:Well, let's stay on this one for one second. My son was Jake. He's a member of Sarah Sitalage was a referee for when ultimate went pro.
Speaker 3:Oh, ok, wow.
Speaker 4:Wow. And of course, referees are running more than the ultimate players and the ultimate players run a lot.
Speaker 3:Right yeah.
Speaker 4:It's. It actually is a good sport and I think it's Olympic sport.
Speaker 1:Oh, is it really? I did not know that Wow.
Speaker 2:You can find it on ESPN 27 somewhere. I would always joke with the guys I was telling Fred before the show I'd say how do you feel about the fact that your sport actually gets huge attendance when dogs play but not when humans do? And it's true People watch dogs do that world open thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, the world open for the frisbee dog, frisbee thing. Yeah, that's right. Border Collies are almost always the champions because they're just superior life forms having two of them. So anyways, right where's full. So give us kind of a little background about your Masonic career when did you start? And kind of give us a 30,000 foot view of who you are and where you come from. Yeah, I was raised in 1988.
Speaker 4:Sierra Sota 147. Wow, my Masonic record says that I was junior steward in 1990 and Marshall in 1991, which I had no idea I'd ever been a Marshall. It's just on my record. I got in line and I had to drop out. I start a new career, had two kids and diapers and that happens.
Speaker 3:Yep, that happens Exactly.
Speaker 4:So and really it was the right thing to happen, because I mean I was involved at the, at the lodge, in the third degree, for I mean for quite a bit and then and then got pretty involved in Scottish Wright and the shrine, but I've always been back to the Blue Lodge.
Speaker 2:Yes, you for sure have, and thank God you have. Yeah so this guy has been the one that got me through this year. I think you need past masters to help the masters get through the year. Yeah. That's right, keep them on the right track and you were always the one checking in on me, which really helped me so much. Just get a random call and say are you doing OK, is everything all right, and I'm like what do you know that I don't?
Speaker 4:And he's like just check it. Oh, ok, yeah, thank you. Well, I've been there twice, so I know what you're going through. I was a master of Venice 301 in 2011 and then master of Sarasota in 2016.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you need some help. Ok, you did Venice first, I did Huh, they had a need, they had a need.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I started as senior Deacon there and in glad I started at senior Deacon because I just don't think he can be an effective master without yeah, we're being really good at that part. Whether you did it for the entire year, you better know the part.
Speaker 3:Right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Right, I still look at that as like I don't know why, but like that chair I identified with so closely that I still get mad when I see other people sitting in it Like it's my chair, you know, do you have that about any of the chairs while you probably the east, you like? Who are these clowns thinking they can run a lodge? That's my chair.
Speaker 4:Well, I like, I like being senior Deacon. I'm going to do it Saturday. Yes, you know you're moving.
Speaker 2:And yeah.
Speaker 4:For me, it's a lot easier to be in the degree than to sit there and watch. Yes, I'm the same, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like almost meditation to sit and watch it, you know. It's like you know everything is going to happen and it's happening, and it's almost like no, and it's calming. But, it's really boring. Like you want to be in the action, right.
Speaker 3:Where's my life Once you've?
Speaker 2:been there yet Put me in coach, it's hard.
Speaker 1:Well, that's, that's what I was just going to say, because being, you know, only raised two years, two and a half years ago, sitting on the sidelines during degrees, for me is awesome, because I'm just totally focused on every word you know, hearing it and experiencing it, taking it in, you know, so that when my time comes up, I've got it in my head, you know.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I look over and see you mouthing words.
Speaker 1:All the time, all the time, I'm trying to get it in, get it in, get it in there, you know. So you can get it in all day long, but until you get it back out, get it in and then get it back out. That's when you really learn it, you know, that's when you really get to know it. And we made a commitment this coming year several of us to go through Silver to Gold Card we're going to do 52 weekly get togethers to try, by the end of the year, to get both of those cards for me.
Speaker 1:Wade shout out to Wade, brother Wade out there and a couple of other guys right, yeah, that'll be fun.
Speaker 2:It treated just like a regular catechism class, but going through all the proficiency cards.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 4:Yeah so right, where's full. Tell us how I can help with that.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you said that. You shouldn't have said that. Now we have two classes a week everyone. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm down with it. There's the yell hey, I'm down with it. I would. It would be great to have those things in a year's time, not only just because we should be getting, we should be educating ourselves and growing in masonry, but also it'll be. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Oh, getting together and going through it all and you know look back at your catechism time.
Speaker 1:It was so awesome. It was so awesome. No pressure yeah.
Speaker 2:No one's asking you to do stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean, don't get me wrong the, the proficiencies for me were extremely stressful. Well, I my first one was EA was because we were just not prepared for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I got to be honest with the fellow craft was great.
Speaker 3:I enjoyed that one we merged your groups and merged the groups and that was good. You finally got together.
Speaker 1:That's when I knew that. I knew that catechism by myself from memory, from beginning to end. I did not the EA, I only knew my parts barely. But this one I could. I remember saying it to you over the phone while I was driving, from beginning to end that one time and I was like damn, I just did this.
Speaker 2:It was awesome, you know, yeah, it really, it really was, and that there was a moment. I know where you like. I don't think this is for me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that was during that EA.
Speaker 2:We didn't, but your instructor came to me and said we're about to lose for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were too, because I was just like this, I don't know man, I think I got some kind of brain problem here, because I can't remember. Can't remember what is that, how's that go, krs, I have KRS, can't remember you know, I can't remember, can't remember that's, that's my disease.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so first hurdle in me, I'm totally looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:Another rabbit trail there. Right were full. You were a because of the title. Right were full. The reason for that is because you were a DDGM at one time.
Speaker 4:In 2012, 2012, and then I finished up 2013.
Speaker 1:Oh, ok, oh.
Speaker 4:OK, we had a guy that was district deputy had to move.
Speaker 1:Oh OK.
Speaker 4:And I finished out here.
Speaker 1:Oh, ok, ok, so tell us a little bit about your experience with regard to that role and in that time frame.
Speaker 4:When was this 2012. And again picked it up again in December of 2013.
Speaker 1:So that's 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah, a decade ago. It seems longer and like it just happened yesterday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right I get that, I get that.
Speaker 2:It was quite an honor. Easy times, or was it tough times back then I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4:I like dealing with the brothers. And one of the beauties of district deputies. You're kind of obligated to pay attention to all the lodges and not just the ones that you're involved in, so I like that part as well. There's always times when you're in a leadership role that you're going. Why am I having to deal with this? But for the vast majority of the time it was very positive.
Speaker 1:And you're required to visit every lodge.
Speaker 4:In my year, my first year, four times.
Speaker 1:Four times Each lodge, wow.
Speaker 2:Nine lodges at the time.
Speaker 4:So you had your official visit and then you had a follow-up visit with the Worshaw Master and the secretary. I included the senior warden to talk about where they might be deficient and where they can enter. And to tell them when they were doing right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that happens too. Yeah, a lot, believe it or not, and the last visit was just for fun.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, it wasn't for fun, you just get to chill out on that visit.
Speaker 2:Right have your feet rubbed, so the first one is the official visit.
Speaker 4:The second one is to go through that four-page checklist. Ok, right, yep, and point out the deficiencies, and then the second official visit, and then the second follow-up, which is with the new Worshaw Master.
Speaker 3:Oh, ok, I see.
Speaker 4:Usually the same old secretary.
Speaker 3:Usually Almost always.
Speaker 4:So if it didn't get changed from the first visit, you only hopes with the senior warden, because it's secretary didn't change it on first visit, he's not gonna change it on the second.
Speaker 3:Right, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2:I hope people were listening to that what you said. You included the senior warden in your official visit because you were gonna see him again in your year and it's good for him to know what the issues are he needs to know what he's getting into.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately and look, you know you're counting down the last two months. You just said that you're no longer president of the Master Mason Association, but you are for two more months. You just don't have another meeting, right, he's?
Speaker 1:not installed in January. He's hesitating to answer that one. Wait, what Hold on? Hold on no.
Speaker 2:Sorry for the bad news, but you don't get out that easily, Okay well, I mean, the thing is I came in and got my checklist done and I had never seen that checklist before, so I'm sitting there looking at it for the first time answering questions about wait. We didn't do that, secretary, wait.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was a tough moment. Yeah, I'm a treasure. I'm sitting right next to him.
Speaker 3:I shouldn't have worn it and got mad and slammed the door and walked out in the middle. Oh, it was an interesting oh my.
Speaker 1:God, what's happening? I don't have any control over this. And of course you know, right-worsful Davies, he's just calm, he's like all right, let's go to the next one.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sure he's seen worse and everybody's like.
Speaker 1:You know, we're all dodging. We're playing dodge the question here and he's just like okay, let's go on to the next one.
Speaker 2:It depends on what your definition of the word is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right, and the irony is that checklist has been around for years.
Speaker 3:So it's not a surprise to the secretary.
Speaker 4:He's seen it before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, although they always act surprised like what, what, what, worsful Master, why didn't you? I'm like what. Wait, hold on, but our senior warden was there because I knew I can't do that to that guy. What's happening to me?
Speaker 1:Right, all right, so that was Zach, and so Zach was aware of it.
Speaker 2:But I don't know if every lodge does that. So for the DDGM to make sure it happens is very wise.
Speaker 4:Right move, yeah, that is a wise move I had to argue to get that done.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't doubt it.
Speaker 4:And I'm going look, if you want change, the senior warden's the guy, because a lot of lodges have secretaries been around for a long time and they're setting their ways and they've seen that list before. So if it hasn't changed and they've been the secretary for the last five years, you know where the problem is Right, right sure.
Speaker 2:And, let's be honest, most DDGMs aren't going to push that hard.
Speaker 4:They're not really going to say take care of this or else, for the most part, you know all of those go to Grand Lodge and technically the Grand Master could look at one of those reports and show up at a lodge. It could happen.
Speaker 1:It could happen.
Speaker 2:And here in Florida. It may that they may be getting a little more strict on things. I think they should.
Speaker 1:As long as they handle it correctly. You know, come in slowly, but let it, and it has been known, let. We have been put on notice that you know. It's going to become more and we're going to be doing masonry as masonry, more and more and more as time goes on. It sounds like that's the direction Grand Lodge wants to go in, and I'm a fan of it myself. Yeah, I don't mind accountability. That's right.
Speaker 2:Personally we this year. I guess the Grand Master directed the district instructor to sit and grade each officer individually on how they do in the official opening yeah. Officer yeah, he's grading each one of us as individuals and they don't tell you how you do.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, unless it's something really bad, then you're going to know when they show up at the door and say oh, what are you here for? I'm here to talk to that guy over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Ooh dun dun, dun.
Speaker 2:I mean it makes sense if you think about it. If you just report to the Grand Lodge, they got like a 60 in their opening. Like who's the problem?
Speaker 3:Right. How do they fix that? Yeah?
Speaker 2:But if you're doing them individually and you're, oh, the senior warden is, ooh, that's going to watch that guy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:What effect can they have? It's up to the Lodge whether they're going to advance that guy or not.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And the Grand Lodge can know about it all day long.
Speaker 2:But it's still up to the Lodge. What is the plan? Why do they want that information? How can you act on it?
Speaker 1:You know data is always a good thing If it's used correctly. So the more data you get, if you know how to read data you're an insurance agent you understand the value of good data. So that's probably real estate, Not real estate. Sorry, insurance broker. Yeah, you caught the drift, though.
Speaker 2:You did say insurance.
Speaker 3:Oh, did I say insurance, all right.
Speaker 1:Apparently. I've had enough coffee.
Speaker 2:We're here to talk to Fred today, apparently so. Let Fred come to the surface, yeah right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't talk to Fred any day, Anyway. Ok, so Rabbit Trail brought and Rabbit Trail. Oh sorry, he keeps rolling up my cords there. May I ask a question? Yes, please, please, shut Fred up.
Speaker 2:Distinguished Wright, Worshpill District, Anthony Barry D Hart. I don't know if we ever said his full name. I'm curious why did you join Freemasonry? What got you to join in the first place back then?
Speaker 4:The down and dirty answer is my dad said show up at the launch.
Speaker 2:Oh, your dad was a.
Speaker 4:Mason. My dad was a Mason, Also a number of, because I had moved to Sarasota in 85, and I joined in 87. Was raised in 88. That was fast. But there were a number of men that I knew that I'd met in Sarasota, that were also Masons.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 4:I'm looking at those guys going. Well, if it's good for them, it must be good for me. You know how it is. Yeah, you don't really know what you're getting into.
Speaker 2:No, no, no that's right. Well, your dad was a Mason. Did he not talk about it that much at home? I know that generation tend to not talk about it much. That hears it a lot.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he said what he could say, what he thought he could say. Which is a lot less than what you can say.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:But I didn't know the right questions to ask anyway.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:So, honestly, I went to the library and looked it up.
Speaker 2:Nice, it's there. Yeah yeah, I got a book called Free Masonry for Dummies and it's all there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That book tells you everything. It's a good book. Yeah, it actually is a really good book. It doesn't reveal any secrets.
Speaker 2:No, but that's where you realize there aren't that many secrets.
Speaker 3:Right, they just told me everything here in the book. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good overview for anybody out there who's wondering. Ea's out there that are listening. Masonry for Dummies is definitely helpful, and for simpletons like me it has pictures. So it was very, very helpful yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it is actually incredibly helpful, and even if you've been a Mason, it might not hurt to look at that book for some time, because it does tell you what we're here to do in much better terms than we do in our million hours of talking about free Masonry. Right, right.
Speaker 1:So Wright Warshville, what is your highest? I don't like titles and rank. We're brothers, I mean, that's our main title, but what is your highest rank?
Speaker 3:And I understand that you are in rare air regarding the Scottish Rite.
Speaker 1:Is that correct?
Speaker 4:I am a 33rd degree Correct Scottish Rite, imagine.
Speaker 2:Elustrious in the Scottish Rite is what they call you Elustrious Right, right, elustrious.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's a high honor, for sure, tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you would.
Speaker 4:I've said for years, there's three ways to get that 33rd degree as fame fortune or work your ass off. I had to go with work your ass off because that's the only good way to do it. Well, it was the fun way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean soon after I was raised. Well, I went to the Scottish Rite in the Shrine in the same year, 1988. And I think by 1990 was in the 20th degree.
Speaker 3:OK.
Speaker 2:The 20th degree is. What's the name of that one? Do you remember?
Speaker 4:I know we did the 21st.
Speaker 2:It's that Russian pro pro.
Speaker 4:The 20th, it's got the nine candles. I hope I'm sorry, Rick. I hope I'm not spilling anything out here.
Speaker 2:And you and I know that we're talking about this before.
Speaker 4:There's no real secrets in the 20th degree. I wish we could do it in public and still think that we might, could do that one day. That'd be awesome, without doing anything esoteric, because it shows what we do the ritual side and it's also a powerful degree. And then we got into the 14th degree a year or two later.
Speaker 2:Wow, I've been involved in those Right into it in the early days Wow.
Speaker 4:Well, both of those degrees were done by the term SOB. That didn't exist at the time. Sob and meaning South of the Bridge. South of the Bridge, right but both of those degree teams were SOB teams.
Speaker 2:We're in Sarasota, florida, which is about an hour south of where we meet in our Scottish Rite Temple in Tampa, and there's a big bridge in between us, so they call us South of the Bridge, guys, sob.
Speaker 1:SOB is right. We know what they mean. We know what they mean. They're right. You're darn right. So the 20th degree is a matter of justice. Oh, is that right? Ok, yeah, that's what it says here.
Speaker 4:That's the new. Remember these degrees got rewritten about 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that right? I did not know that.
Speaker 4:Some of them being remarkably close to the original and some being the 20th degree completely different.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting. I wonder what we've been doing. The older version, ok, ok.
Speaker 4:And part of the reason for that is if you've got a team that's been doing a degree for years and then you tell them to relearn the degree, yeah, that's not going to go wrong, but as part of the old degree then there's new stuff, that's
Speaker 2:not going to go wrong.
Speaker 4:You've got to start with new guys, or you've got to have some really good, rich or less, to be able to start the old track and know where to divert. So that's tough. And I like the old 20th.
Speaker 1:OK, so I know that Sean Cooney just went through all of it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And he did it all in a two-day weekend. Was that your experience, or was it different back then?
Speaker 4:When I went through, we actually we did two weekends and we went up Friday night. They'd do a degree, We'd have dinner, They'd do a degree, Then we'd start again the next morning about 6.30. And they did that two weekends in a row.
Speaker 2:So you definitely saw more degrees than we do today. If you did it over two weekends, yes, and of course we've done one-day degrees.
Speaker 4:There's five mandatory degrees.
Speaker 3:OK.
Speaker 4:It can be done in a day.
Speaker 1:OK, wow, that's a long day, huh.
Speaker 4:Well, you can't do all 39 degrees in one day. Ok, so they'll talk about some and exemplify others.
Speaker 2:Imagine how many people it must take to fully do 29 degrees. How many guys do you think if you had to take a guess and they were all different in each degree? You're talking about hundreds of guys.
Speaker 4:Yeah, 250. Wow no kidding, it's a massive undertaking.
Speaker 3:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Those guys need. They don't live next door, they all need to travel and they all got to eat and it's an expensive endeavor.
Speaker 1:I know very little about Scottish Rite Masonry. I haven't really made any decisions as far as pursuing York Rite, scottish Rite, any of that. I'm kind of focused on Blue Lodge right now. But tell us what is, give us the overview To you. What does Scottish Rite mean to you? What is it?
Speaker 4:Well, a couple of years ago, scottish Rite and it might be more than a couple of years ago started going to college at Freemasonry.
Speaker 2:I've heard that.
Speaker 1:I think I've heard that term too, yeah.
Speaker 2:I've heard people talk about it that way.
Speaker 4:I mean there's 29 additional degrees over and above the three that we all went through in the Blue Lodge and there's a lot of information there.
Speaker 3:OK, it sounds like a lot of information.
Speaker 2:Well, in my opinion it spans all of human history. Those degrees, yes, you're doing ancient Egypt, you're doing chivalric medieval times, you're doing French stuff, it's all there.
Speaker 4:Well, remember what happened, right, Albert Pike, because there was all of these degrees all over Europe that had been in different countries, he kind of pulled it all together and drew out these 29, which was the Southern jurisdiction of Scottish Rite, and organized it. Oh, OK. We're all kind of doing the same thing now.
Speaker 1:Would you say that Albert Pike's claim to fame? Is that what made him who he is? I mean he's legendary.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, a lot of things compared to General. Puckin and Scout, and if you read Morals and Dogma, which everyone does, huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'll get right on that.
Speaker 4:You'll see what was going on. There was no television in the 1800s, and these guys went around and spoke, and the more words you had, the more people wanted to listen.
Speaker 3:Oh, right OK.
Speaker 4:So that's part of the problem with Morals and Dogma. He's writing it in the conversation of the day. And it's complicated for somebody today to read that and be able to watch it down to something. That means something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like any other text from a different generation. Somebody needs to step up and rewrite it in the vernacular of the day, which would be real helpful.
Speaker 4:And that's been done to a degree, has it? There's been a bridge Morals and Dogma now, which is pretty good, nice the concept still applies.
Speaker 2:You said the more words you have, the more people listen. Only you have to replace the word money with word yeah, and the concept still applies today. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:The more money you have, the more people will listen to you. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:The concept's alive and well.
Speaker 2:We just use a different word.
Speaker 1:So as far as Scottish Rite goes, it's an extension of masonry. But it is. You don't have to be a Scottish Rite mason. No To be a mason. So there are three degrees in masonry, but going forward, is it just an addition to masonry or is it part of the masonic experience? You know? What I'm trying to say Is this I feel like it's an addition Are you missing out on something by not doing it?
Speaker 2:Yes, Anything you don't do you're missing out on. Well, I know.
Speaker 1:But in masonry can you be a fulfilled, vibrant mason without going into these to York Rite and or Scottish Rite? You can For sure.
Speaker 4:And I think one of the failures of masonry is we tend to, as soon as we raise that guy, we go oh, here's the petition and I did it. I was raised in April of 1988. I went through Back then you had to go through the Scottish Rite or the York Rite before you become a Shrine.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:That rule is no longer in existence, but yeah, so I went through the Scottish Rite that year and then went through the Shrine that year and when did you do the York Rite? About 10 years later. Ok, my dad had gone York Rite and Georgia but had gone Scottish Rite when he moved to Florida. So I got pushed in that direction to begin with and then got kind of involved in it. But I wanted to see what was going on in York Rite, which is why I joined.
Speaker 2:They have some really awesome degrees. They do, especially the later ones. I found them to be that last one maybe in superior to anything I saw in the Scottish Rite. It was impressive.
Speaker 1:There are 15 degrees in York. Rite right yeah.
Speaker 2:Less degrees, but it's kind of the scene content sort of.
Speaker 3:That they're covering.
Speaker 2:Different a little different way that they do it. They say that the York Rite has got a more Christian focus.
Speaker 1:I've heard that. Yeah, and that's where the Knights Templar and all that comes in too. Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:At some point in the York Rite there's a degree where you cross a bridge right. And you're going from the Old Testament to the New Testament, symbolically Interesting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and our Jewish brothers typically don't do that one.
Speaker 2:That's unfortunate, because in the Scottish Rite one of my favorite degrees was the one where they, your souls, being weighed by the Egyptian gods in the afterlife. Now I'm not an Egyptian, but I sure think that degree is awesome and I get the moral lesson that they're trying to tell me from it, so maybe it could be the same for our Jewish brothers you know, they're not converting here, you're just observing and trying to take the moral lesson.
Speaker 4:Well they're. They're not leaving that degree. You have to profess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard that, you, you have to profess. You have to be baptized and you have to profess.
Speaker 2:Well, they baptize you in the Scottish right to.
Speaker 1:Oh, do they? I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:And the 14th you do it. I guess you should probably shouldn't give away too much you don't don't give away too much.
Speaker 4:I could tell you why.
Speaker 1:No, don't do that.
Speaker 2:Don't do that, we have a like I said, you get kind of the same content, but it does have a different slant.
Speaker 1:I'm going back to the part with Jewish brothers don't want to cross over from Old Testament news. The reason they don't want to do that is because it violates their doctrine. Yeah, and that's. It violates their belief. There's things in in my belief structure that I can't violate either, you know, and that I won't, because that's what makes my faith what it is, you know, so you have to like what would be an example of something that you couldn't violate.
Speaker 2:What curiosity.
Speaker 1:Well, there's some of the prayers. You know, Christians, we don't pray to. Somebody, told me once I pray the very first time I was asked to pray. I pray like a Christian, you know, because I am?
Speaker 2:that was me, and was that you? And it's like you can't, you can't pray like that. Would you please say a prayer? He's like, yeah, sure, in Jesus's name we pray. And then I was like, oh, maybe you could be careful with that part. And he said, well, then, don't ask me to say a prayer, no what you said was was you have to have more generic prayers.
Speaker 1:Your prayers need to be more generic. And I said I don't pray to generic gods and I don't pray generic prayers. Don't ask me to pray then. So no one. No one usually asked me to pray, although the other day Justin Broom did and I did, I did modify it.
Speaker 1:But I just didn't stuff. But anyways, I think that's that, that's the beauty of masonry. I mean, we all come to it with our different faith structures and if you know what your faith says and what it doesn't say, well then you're able to navigate through this and and it should sharpen you in your, in your masonic life and in your, in your faith life too, because you should be able to look at what it is that's in front of you and make decisions and do what is right in your, in you know, as far as what you believe. Because if you don't, if you don't, if you say you believe something and you don't follow it, well then do you believe it? I don't know, you know, that's, that's the thing you know.
Speaker 2:So it's and in reality, a lot of these things aren't owned by one faith, as people think they are. Baptism isn't a solely Christian thing.
Speaker 1:Baptism is a Jewish thing.
Speaker 2:The cleansing of your soul through water has been done in, like countless societies in the Jewish and Christian faith.
Speaker 1:It is, it is, it is the for the remission of sin. Yeah, one is baptized to declare to the world that I am changing, I'm going to, I'm going, I'm turning 180 degrees, I'm going the other way. Now I'm coming up out and I'm going to turn and go a different way. That was John the Baptist, one of our patron saints in Masonry, my favorite animal he was that's right with the camel hair and eating locust and honey and animal.
Speaker 2:He was a true man.
Speaker 1:He was out there but that was, that's what he did. He baptized for the remission of sin with water. That was the idea. Anyways, another rabbit trail, but I love these rabbit trails.
Speaker 4:So go through the 14th degree, you'll get the rest of that. You're all over it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I know because I know there I have friends that aren't specifically Christian and got really uncomfortable. In the 14th degree there are many.
Speaker 1:No, is Scottish right or your right? This is the Scottish. Oh, scottish, ok.
Speaker 2:There are some things that happen there that do look very like, like Catholic, almost in nature, the ritual, and it's like are you listening to? Are you just looking? Are you listening, listen to the words here? What's happening here? Because there's people just draw their lines in this hand. You know that Freemasonry helps remove that a little. I think it opens your horizons a little to hear things, not to change your viewpoints, like you said no one's trying to change your religion.
Speaker 1:No, that's right. If you know what you believe and why you believe it, you can hear anything you want. Just make the make decisions based on your sincerely held beliefs. Otherwise, why believe it? Why bother, you know? That's. That's the bottom line. I don't forsake anybody or judge anybody for their belief structures. My judgment comes in when you tell me you believe something and then you can't tell me what it is.
Speaker 4:You know that's that's, or tell me you believe in it and I have to believe in it too. Yeah, no, that's that's and that's.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's the wrong way, favorite one because human beings, the way we're, the way we are. If you tell me I have to believe something, well, I'm not. I'm not going to believe it, just for that reason.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I believe it.
Speaker 1:If you give me a good reason, the good the best reason to believe something is if you look at a person's life and you say, well, that guy's got something there, there's something there in that guy's life that that I need to find out about and you have earned the right to speak because the person is asking you, because you, you live differently or you, you know. Whatever it is, whatever faith it is for, for Christians, this is huge. This is a huge thing. What's living it? Oh, living it out before the world is a huge thing.
Speaker 2:We get as for me, since it's for anybody, anybody, sure.
Speaker 1:But being called a hypocrite, you know, because you profess one thing right. But live. Another thing is absolute taboo in my faith. I try my best, I fail miserably.
Speaker 2:And it's absolute taboo. I find that hard to believe. Yeah, I know it seems to be very prominent.
Speaker 1:Well, in the do we, do we need to go down this?
Speaker 3:Do we need to go down this road?
Speaker 2:That's probably a hole, that's a?
Speaker 3:that's a hell of a rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:It does right. I mean, you would you know that?
Speaker 1:I know that, oh, I absolutely know, and I know where it came from. Yeah, absolutely yeah, but I don't think.
Speaker 2:But it's not just your faith. Look at our fraternity.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how many masons do you look at and be like? Have you learned a single lesson?
Speaker 1:I think we had this conversation just the other day. Apparently, you haven't learned a darn thing. Even though you know you're getting clubbed over the head constantly by your own bad behavior, you still have not learned a damn thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, some people aren't quicker than others. That's it. No, you're right.
Speaker 1:And I appreciate that perspective because I'm one of them. I I don't learn. The first time I got to get a little, the back of my head's got to be good and soft before I'm like, hey, you know what, I probably ought to change direction here.
Speaker 3:I don't like it and hurt Maybe this is bad.
Speaker 2:We talked about that last night, right?
Speaker 1:Having to humble yourself before your brothers because you did something dumb is painful and it hurts, but it's a necessary lesson so that the next time it comes up, you might, you might do something different.
Speaker 4:It's an essential requirement of adulthood, and I agree. Yeah, that's a good word, you know I put in my youth I blamed everybody but me.
Speaker 3:Right. Well that cop gave me that speeding ticket.
Speaker 4:Well, if I hadn't been speeding, I wouldn't have gotten it Right. He wouldn't have had to give it to me. It was my fault, and that's once you understand that you have. You have control over something, and even if you don't have control, you have control over your actions.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 4:That's something that we all need to work on. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am. I am responsible for my responses, thank you, you know, I absolutely am, but I'm not responsible for the guy that he either. You could lie about me, you can steal from me, you can hurt me, but I still have control over the way I respond to it and that's like you said. That's a basics of adulthood. It really is. We're grown ass men. You know we should be I. We say this all the time. You're a Mason, you're a grown man. Yeah, we should be behaving differently than this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what we're not going to? Because there's so many of us and we're all in different stages of our life, like you said when you were young. You're different than you are today, and we're all on this journey, but we should all be moving in the same direction.
Speaker 1:Correct At least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at least you should be trying to get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I find that in our district there are a lot of men ahead of me in this, this Masonic walk, who are willing to, you know, impart their wisdom and their experience back to. And I've talked to other, I've talked to other masons from other districts where this is not the case. We're pretty unique Our, our district in Florida, some of the districts out there, those lodges will not speak to each other. I mean, they're in competition and it's just like you know, there's no, there's really no leadership. You're not visiting other lodges, you're not getting experiences from people who have like, like yourself, right where you've been at this a long time and you got a lot to share for those coming up behind you. That is not the case in a lot of districts out there. There is, you know, a lot of strife and separation going on out there.
Speaker 2:Even in our district we have at least one lodge that didn't make it to the Master Mason Association all year, not one time, and we sent delegates. I personally have been to that lodge asking the officers right. Because I'm ignorant, I don't know. You know, somebody must have made somebody mad somewhere down the line. That's how we got here. So I don't even know the situation anymore. Like that's how old the drama must be.
Speaker 1:Well, and it says a lot that the Worshipal Master and President of the Worshipal Master of 147, who is the President of the MMA, went to your lodge to ask what's going on, and he still doesn't know. So, that's right. So that's. That'll tell you how that went.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I think it's everywhere I think everyone deals with that stuff and you know what's going to happen is like we'll have less lodges. That's where it's headed. It's true we will, and maybe that's good for the fraternity.
Speaker 1:Now I heard, isn't Grand Lodge trying to do something as far as cleaning all that up, trying to either bring lodges together and lodges that aren't making masons? You know, come to them and find out what it is. You know that they want to do, and somebody was who was talking about that.
Speaker 2:It was the. We hosted a guest speaker who's running for the Junior Grand Warden.
Speaker 1:Oh right, Right, yeah, he was talking about that. He was talking about that. I don't know if that's an actual legislation or something. Do you know anything about that?
Speaker 4:It's not legislation, but I think Phoenix Lodge really was a catalyst for this whole thing. Right, we had two lodges Cary B Fish and builders that they were good lodges. They just weren't. They didn't have enough activity to make it go.
Speaker 2:The way I heard it is one lodge had money but not members, and one lodge had members but not money. That's how I heard it when I was over there.
Speaker 4:Had some members. Neither one of them were incredibly active and by coming together that hybrid vigor I call it, that lodge really blossomed and we're talking about Phoenix Lodge.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right around the corner from us at 147 and Sarasota Floor. For those of you who are listening, that there is a 147 is in downtown Sarasota.
Speaker 2:On Main Street.
Speaker 1:North Main Street and literally a stone's throw away.
Speaker 2:A mile.
Speaker 1:A mile away is Phoenix Lodge and there's a history there.
Speaker 2:Well, they came from us, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, they were our members that started two other lodges, and that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:So Cary B Fish and Phoenix were two different lodges that merged Cary B Fish and builders.
Speaker 4:Oh and builders, Okay Became.
Speaker 1:Phoenix. And now Phoenix is kind of the Cary B Fish Lodge, is that correct? Cary B Fish being one of our grandmasters from 147 in 1906, I believe 1923, I think yeah right, that's right 1923, that's correct.
Speaker 4:But when you see what happened there, because those two lodges became a very active lodge- Right. And that was a positive thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Still active. Yeah, their culture is such that they like to do fun things in the community.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of their thing and ours has traditionally been more about education and history and study.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what Rusty and I used to tell everyone that came is hey, you might want to check them out if you have family and you're more into the social stuff, because that's kind of their thing Right right. So we would always send people to check them out if we thought they might be a better fit for them. That's kind of the beauty of having lodges that close together.
Speaker 1:And the beauty of lodges in general is the diversity of them. Each one has a little bit of a different flair to it. Yep, from what I understand, 147 back in the day was really about business. A lot of the business community leaders in business were members of 147, the mayor and a couple of mayors actually, yeah, and big time developers, real estate people of means, bankers, emick Kelly.
Speaker 2:Emick Kelly the famous clown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but yeah, each lodge having that different distinctive to it which, like you said, we could. If somebody comes in and they got a family, they're younger and they want to do stuff, we send them over to Phoenix, you know.
Speaker 2:Tell them, at least check it out. Yeah, see what you think.
Speaker 4:And you can go to other lodges. Belong to one lodge and go to other lodges.
Speaker 1:Yes, we saw that last night when we asked, 147 was asked to stand up and some of us didn't, because they have multiple members.
Speaker 4:Well, when you belong to more than one lodge man every time it happens.
Speaker 2:I see him going. What do I do here?
Speaker 3:He's praying short circuiting illogical.
Speaker 2:I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:Just pulling your string there.
Speaker 4:Well, I decided even months I'm with venison. You made a system.
Speaker 1:Oh, there you go, nice, nice Fair, that's fair, that's fair.
Speaker 2:What they're talking about is in our master Mason Association meeting we give a prize to the lodge that brings the most members and they get to display that in their lodge until the next meeting. We call it the broken column.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And so because Wright Warshville Hart belongs in his act, very active in two lodges, he often gets put in a situation where his boat could swing. Which lodge wins that prize?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And so it's a lot of stress for him, and it sounds like you've made a system so that you're off the hook.
Speaker 4:I do. You didn't make a choice. I always get dirty looks.
Speaker 1:We weren't even close.
Speaker 4:I think it's the fairer system. I think it's the fairer system, of course.
Speaker 3:Any system is better than no system Now that they know it.
Speaker 2:They can work it to their advantage.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's like wait, what Tuesday? Ok, All right, this is our week.
Speaker 4:Let's get the guys. Come on. I always see Venice on, even months. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:No, but it's a great. And our district instructor came up with another prize. Which. How cool was that? Very cool, very clever of him. He made an award and as district instructor he decided that every member of every lodge he's assigning points for the things they do in Masonic education.
Speaker 3:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:And he will total the points and the lodge with the most points gets to display the new award he made, which I'll post it online for people to see.
Speaker 1:Right. So you get your lodge plaque on there for the year and you get to display it for the year and you got to give it up to the next one the next year. So another traveling award, which I think is great, man. It just brings unity to the district. You know, that's what it's all about. The traveling gavel and the column, the broken column, all of these things are designed, if you're listening, and you've got a district that doesn't do a lot of visitation. These are things that we do that really foster all of the lodges coming together on a regular basis. Last night we had representation from every logic set to them, not mistaken. Yeah, punagorda, who usually makes it, couldn't make it for some reason.
Speaker 4:You know what I think? Some lot just don't want to be told what to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I'm not saying that's a right or a wrong right right, right. And I think district 23 is unusual that we've got six logistic are participating on the level that yeah, right, right and working together for like like picnic.
Speaker 2:Second thing, yeah, it's very positive. There's no negative feelings. If it's like hey, can you get my three guys in this master Mason degree and then the week do that? We were horse trading. All right, I got your three, but you're gonna take my two next week at your fellow crowd. Okay, we'll do it.
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 4:Which is the positive part of the whole thing and why I think they ought to be coming.
Speaker 2:But we have nine lodges in our district. I know there are districts the 20 has like 14 lodges in their district. There's a big job for some imagine the district deputy has to visit 14 lodges four times four times yeah. And it ain't one mile apart over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's right. Yeah, there's a lot of distance between those lodges, that's a tough job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the district deputies really are. It is a hard job. I think people may not realize how difficult that is. It's because you only get asked to do the dirty work Right. You really are only activated. There's a problem.
Speaker 4:Hopefully not.
Speaker 3:But that's your duty.
Speaker 2:Right, like you're supposed to pull charters for the grandmaster and you're supposed to inform him of problems that are happening in your district, and that's what happened in our district, that's exactly what happened this year.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the DDGM was responsible for that whole fiasco, you know and when they came in and I had to remove a sitting master. That happens and that's kind of the district deputies job is to be the grandmaster's guy.
Speaker 1:And that's part of the district deputies.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're the arm of the grandmaster. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's part of our representative government. So it's the representative of the lodges for our district to the grandmaster and the representative of the grandmaster to the district back down, and that's. It's just, it's representative. You know it's not, it's. That's the form of democracy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that.
Speaker 2:Masonry holds, is that representative government system, you know we had a district deputy from our lodge, juan de la Rosa, who had to pull a charter in his year and he told me it broke his heart.
Speaker 1:Well, but that was his duty. Yeah, now those brothers hate him. Well, of course that's right. It's his fault. It was the guy. Of course not. How could it be his fault? He?
Speaker 2:probably didn't even know the situation. He got the call from on high.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was his job. They said go get it. Yeah, he had to go get it. That's a tough job.
Speaker 4:They had six months to prevent that from happening. It could have been done.
Speaker 1:This is Northport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, look at you.
Speaker 1:No, I'm up on a few things, I'm up on all the bad stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the bad stuff and the good stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're up. We're up on stuff. We know what we talked about this last night in Lodge. You know the the bad. We got to talk about all of it openly and yeah, and we're not going to learn. We're not going to learn anything by sweeping stuff under the rug. You know we have to. We're grown men, we're Masons and we just got to talk about whatever the problem is.
Speaker 2:Speaking of this, let's put him in the hot seat.
Speaker 1:He's already in the hot seat. My soul turned on.
Speaker 2:Entire Masonic career that span from 1980.
Speaker 4:88, 87. Yeah 87.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ok, that's where it started 87 to 2023. What stands out to you as your biggest failure personally in Freemasonry?
Speaker 4:Yeah, strong word, strong word.
Speaker 2:Well, we all have something, right, yeah?
Speaker 3:Got a low point we're at.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm to and be like I could go back in time. I would totally change what I did or what I said.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Maybe do something I didn't do, like I think we all have that thing, yeah. Not me Really.
Speaker 4:Such a really big life.
Speaker 3:Let me give you four.
Speaker 4:There's always things you wish you'd done better, but I don't have any real regrets.
Speaker 2:Really good.
Speaker 4:Except for what I didn't have control over.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:My second term as district deputy. I found out the day that I was going to Grand Lodge that the sick I think might have been the treasurer down there had ripped them off for like 80 grand. Oh man and in the worst for master, didn't call me, he called the Grand Master, which was embarrassing to me, oh, man but again, I wasn't in control of that Right.
Speaker 2:Right, that's right.
Speaker 4:And the Grand Master understood that.
Speaker 2:But that's the moment where you're like I wish I had known.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know, the guy went to jail.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:They got some of the money back, not a lot. Treasurer secretary's lodges do those audits. Every year you need to do an audit.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Hello.
Speaker 2:Don't just sign the paper Working on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. I'm going through a little bit of that right now because I took over pro tem for half a year and the previous audits, the previous months, were from somebody else and I'm I was being pressured to sign off on it, so I'm not signing off on any of that and it wasn't me.
Speaker 2:Good, that's not me.
Speaker 1:I mean I will. I will tally it all up, based on past records, and I'll put it in there. But there's going to be a big note on there that it wasn't me that did any of this and it wasn't me that tallyed any of it, that I just tallyed it up because that's the reason for it. You know it's, I'm the last, I'm the final checkpoint as treasurer with regard to where the money's going and where, where, where it's coming from and where it's headed. So that's important. You know it's. It's not hard. You're a treasurer, you've done it.
Speaker 3:You're a treasurer of a couple of different bodies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not hard but it's. It's really super necessary to be done correctly and filed correctly, you know, because someone can go back at any time and look at it and you, I have the confidence of knowing the ones that I did will be as accurate as I can possibly make them.
Speaker 2:I mean, what more can you do? You can vouch for what you did.
Speaker 1:That's all you can do, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yep, but OK, what about the converse of that question? Because for me it's so clear in my mind my installation day will be the highlight of my Masonic career. To this point for sure it stands out. No question, I plan so hard for that installation I never actually thought about being in the installation, so when it was happening it was kind of a shock to me and overwhelming, really over. I drove home that day thinking did that really just happen?
Speaker 1:Is this a dream? It was a great night.
Speaker 2:And so I'm on cloud nine. You know when I think about that. Do you have a moment like that in your Masonic career?
Speaker 4:Well, remember, I had two installs at two different lodges, so in those were you've also been installed as a district deputy twice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're also a state chairman or zone chairman right now. I am zone chairman committee, working on the endowment and finance committee and the insurance committee with the grand launch and you're an illustrious 33rd degree in the Scottish right and you're in the shrine and you've been in charge of the degree work in the shrine my ceremonial you were in charge of still in charge of that. You've done everything.
Speaker 2:So my question to you is like what is the highlight for you when you think back? Do you have one that you're like always go to when you need a happy place in your memory?
Speaker 4:No, I think it's the day today. I think it's the fact that I know that there's places that I can go and I'm going to find brothers that will hear about me and that, and that I can help them if they need it.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:So that's a daily comfort for me. I mean, I don't think I felt that way when I initially joined Masonry. It took a while for me to realize what the real import was. But but I've been, I've traveled the world, I've met people in other countries that just happened to see a ring or heard something that I said, and the fact that you could have an immediate friend right yeah, another country, is just incredible.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, I experienced that in Bahama in a Nassau I went. I was I told the story too many times but I was standing outside the, the lodge there in Nassau, bahama, and it was just gated up. You know, I could just holding the gate, looking through the gate. You know it was just the coolest building, super old, old building, apparently apparently had been there since the pirate days is how long that lodge has been there. Anyways, I'm about to walk away. I turn around. Here comes the worst full master with a bucket and a mop in his hand. He had showed up to what? To mop the floors. And so he, we, we did a little, a little masonic test to see if I was legit out front.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got tried.
Speaker 1:I got tried out front, which was totally cool, and then he gave me a grand tour of the entire building, the history of, and stuff. We spent about an hour together Nice, and yeah, and I got a friend. Like you said, I'm in a different country, it's the Bahamas, I mean it's you know, but still, it was just it.
Speaker 1:I know exactly what you're talking about. You know you go somewhere and and there's, you know how it is in Bahama when you get off that boat. Man, it's just a nightmare it's. I can't stand that whole confusion and all that scam going on and all of a sudden here's this little oasis with this one friend you know that I found and we go inside the lodge. It's quiet, it's super old and awesome man. You know he's just giving me the grand tour, brother and friend. You know it's. It's. Where else are you going to get that man? You know, I don't know of another organization where you can have that kind of connection so quickly. You know, I don't think there is one no.
Speaker 1:I don't think there is either.
Speaker 4:Well, another highlight I got to raise both my sons.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a big deal with my dad there and wow, my youngest son.
Speaker 4:I was actually in the east when he gave back his master Mason cataclysm, so that was that's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big deal.
Speaker 2:So your dad raised you? He did, and you raised both your sons, I did. You have something like the like traditional, all wholesome American story, don't you? You're doing your dad's business and now your son's doing your business, correct?
Speaker 1:You have any grand sons?
Speaker 4:I do too. And the next generation is on its way and another grand child on the way. We don't know what the sex is All right. She just found out, so congratulations.
Speaker 1:Congratulations Wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know it was pretty cool. Grandkids are awesome yeah.
Speaker 1:Grandkids had I known better, I had had them first yeah.
Speaker 2:If only yes, to take my child. I'll see him in three months.
Speaker 1:So, as we are, as we're kind of coming to a maybe an ending point, who?
Speaker 2:knows no.
Speaker 1:Tell us kind of like you, you we've already made it clear you, you, you know this district well. You know Masonry very well. You've been in it for a long, long time. You're pretty well accomplished, you're very accomplished in it. What's the future of our craft? What do you see? What are some of the challenges ahead of us as far as the craft goes, and what, what can, what can we, as Mason, sitting sitting in their car or at the gym listening to this podcast? What's some of the things that we can do to try to face some of the challenges coming to us over the next decade?
Speaker 4:My dad used to say that what this country needs is a good depression, and what he meant by that was we need to need each other in the heyday of Masonry was right after the World War two, when all those guys came back from Europe and the Pacific and they were used to hanging out with each other. And suddenly they're at home. There's no TV, because there was no TV back then.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:And they were looking for an excuse to get out. I'm not saying that's the only reason that they joined, but but think about it in 2023. Allegedly, I have 500 channels on my TV, right Satellite radio without know how many channels. Computers I've got a computer in my hand. You don't have to leave the house to feel connected, but I don't think you are connected.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 4:And that's what I like about Masonry is the fact that we're back connected and we're face to face and right. And that's what the large meetings about. Are they boring sometimes? Yeah, but I'm sitting there with a bunch of my brothers and friends, so I like that, and of course, I like the ritual too.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we say that that. That's how you show your love for the fraternity.
Speaker 1:Is you give, you give back your time, like those data meetings aren't always the most fun thing you're going to say it's a HOA meeting sometimes, man, it's that's kind of how it feels, but we got to do it. We have to do it. We do it together.
Speaker 2:You try right. Everyone's trying to find a way to make it more interesting, but at the end of the day, you can't escape doing the business.
Speaker 4:You gotta read the minutes, thank you. You gotta pay the bills, it's just gotta be done.
Speaker 2:But that's like how we show our love, we come back, how we sit through it, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, going back to my question, what are some of the challenges? We talk about it all the time going forward? I mean, one of them is dissension in the lodge and our inability to deal with it in-house. People going online and posting stuff about brothers and stuff. But other than that, I know recruitment. I know that there was a time when there was over 80,000 masons in the state of Florida. We're just barely 32,000 now. There's a lot of lodges out there that aren't making it financially and there's a lot of lodges out there, apparently that aren't making new masons and haven't done so in quite some time. So I would assume those are some of the challenges that we face out there in the future.
Speaker 4:Well, no question about it. But Chris is doing a great job with bringing in younger masons. I think people want it.
Speaker 1:They do Once they know what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And one of the difficulties when I was district deputy Grand Lodge would send me a leave. It was always an email.
Speaker 3:There was never a phone ever.
Speaker 4:And I'm 69. I know how to use a computer. I just am not. You're going to have to call and talk to somebody right.
Speaker 3:Let's get to it.
Speaker 4:You get to it when you're texting. You're kind of, I think, talking around it. But that's just my generation and maybe that's the way we're going to go going forward. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think that once young men come into the Lodge and they realize the value of face-to-face fellowship and communication, getting into the lives of other men, they realize that the phone, like you said, is a lie, that whole virtual friendships isn't real, and I think that's what they want. That's what these young guys are looking for is that camaraderie?
Speaker 1:that they come in. I think that's our biggest challenge in the program that you started and that we're going to really really put into second gear this coming year. Man, we're going to really hit that one hard. I think that is a huge answer to one of the biggest challenges we have is, we're not making new masons.
Speaker 2:We can make them. It's easy, easy, easy easy.
Speaker 1:Keeping them would be the second challenge. Let's talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:That, in my opinion, is like a tree when you let it go for a while it gets brown and dry, and if you want it to grow again you have to clip the dead stuff off.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and fertilize it.
Speaker 2:We have to accept that if we're going to grow our fraternity at some point, we have to clip the dead lodges off and let the new ones emerge.
Speaker 4:The other part of that was look at my Masonic career. So I got in line in 1990. It became overwhelming. I had to drop that line. I hear guys all the time going well, they never come to lodge, why don't we kick them out? Well, if you kicked me out in 1992, I wouldn't have been around in 2008.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4:To get back in line and actually got in two different lines. Went all the way to Worshpill Master and Beast and yeah well.
Speaker 1:Beast mode Beast mode.
Speaker 4:But people have to have their time and it's the 20% rule We've discussed it many times 80, 20.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 4:Any group 20% of people doing 80% of the work.
Speaker 3:That's correct.
Speaker 4:That's business, that's social clubs, fraternities is always that way, but it's not always the same.
Speaker 3:20% and that's what you've got to keep in mind, that's right.
Speaker 1:Nurture those people and wait for their time to come and I think if your dues are current and you make your dues every year after year and you don't come to the lodge, you're missing out. But you're not in my opinion. You're not at a deficit. In my opinion, you're still supporting the lodge. You've got something going on in your life and we don't know what it is. Like you said, you had things to do, you had a life to live.
Speaker 1:You had children. You had stuff to do, but you came back to it because they didn't kick you out.
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 1:Because they kept you in it, and that's what we need to make sure of. It's the guy that it's really more on the other side. It's the guy that joins and then just comes in here and doesn't want to get it.
Speaker 1:Or wants to change it or wants to change it, or just why wasn't I consulted? That attitude, how come nobody's talking to me about where we're going with all of this stuff? It's like, well, because it isn't about you, it's about all of us, it's about brotherly affection and truth and relief and community involvement. It's not about one person. That's the big problem. Are these guys that come in and, like you said, they want to change it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, or yeah, I mean. So I'm a catechism instructor as well and I talk to a lot of the guys that we bring in and stick with them, because I become a catechism instructor and we bring a lot of young guys in, which everyone wants. But young guys have families and jobs and oh, so many responsibilities on them.
Speaker 2:In reality, this isn't going to be something, like you said at a point in your life where you can just pick it up and run with it sometimes, and so I'm talking to one of our new EAs. Just the other day, he actually sent me a text late at night and said can we talk? I would normally call him immediately, but I had so many drinks I was like this isn't going to be a good time for me.
Speaker 2:So I texted him how about tomorrow? How early, and he said I get up at 6.30. I'm calling you, ok. So in my mind I'm like here we go, we're losing a guy already.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:No, this young man came into our lodge and is finding everything he needed in his life right now, and you'd never know it. He would never know it. He's moved from another state. He's away from his family for the first time in his life. Only has the in-laws. He's having twins. He's already got a baby.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:A lot of pressure and so he's here. He came through on his own, he started listening to the podcast, he's getting the bigger picture and he's meeting a lot of the guys in the lodge and he's like I feel like I have real relationships that I didn't have since I left home. That's huge. He's getting a home here we made a home for him that made him feel safe, comfortable, accepted and encouraged him to be himself, Whereas at home it's not about him, Like we've said many times. It's about my wife. It's about my children.
Speaker 1:It's about my responsibilities Right.
Speaker 2:So when he's raised a master mason, we may not see him in lodge. But I promise you, we changed his life forever.
Speaker 3:Right, right, because 30 years from now.
Speaker 4:He could show up. He will show up. He's a superstar. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:He's probably dying for the day. His kids go away and he can even finally, I'm here, guys. I mean, you've got to look at the bigger picture. You can't just look past your own nose Like there's a. This is a lifetime endeavor. We got involved and we joined the fraternity.
Speaker 4:And here's what makes it different. We internalize it, Learning the work that we do to get through the three degrees. The lodge is in you.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like that.
Speaker 4:So long as you're paying dues, you're part of the lodge. That's right, and if you don't walk back in that building, I don't care.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:Because none of us became master masons. Well, except for the one day degrees where we didn't internalize that. And then with the one day degrees the only guys that I've ever seen that were successful went back and did the work.
Speaker 2:Really yes, ok, well, their own choice.
Speaker 4:They said I'm going to learn those catechisms 20 years ago I was at a one day degree at Sears Sitalage and I think 126 guys went through that. They did all three degrees. What is that about?
Speaker 2:Whose brain child was that?
Speaker 4:Well, it was somebody going well, look, we got these lawyers and they don't have the time to do catechism, and I'm going well, how many rounds of golf do they play a week? Because I can teach you catechism in one hour a week.
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 4:Even at the fastest golf course, it takes you three, three and a half hours from the 18.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:You know what? Take me golfing with you. I will teach you the catechism while we're playing golf. Yeah, that's right, you can still do both of those things, so excuses are going to get in the way. But, that's what differentiates. I'm an eagle. I belong to the moose. There's none of that.
Speaker 2:Are you a turtle? No, that's right, but none of that. Are you a turtle? I am a turtle, ok.
Speaker 3:I am not a turtle.
Speaker 2:I hear we're going to get a turtle degree at one of our esoteric discussions.
Speaker 3:Is that right? Yeah, all right.
Speaker 4:Oh, I heard that too. Yeah, I went through it so long ago I don't remember. I didn't go bad 30s up than years ago.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to see what it's all about. I've never even heard of some of these things. The moose lodge I actually walked into a moose lodge by accident when I was trying to go to a Grandmaster's visit and they looked at me like I was an alien.
Speaker 3:I was like oh, I'm not welcome here.
Speaker 2:I guess I was just trying to get a little warmed up for the Grandmaster's visit, but I'll go elsewhere. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:I did a ride along with Widow Suns early on and it was fun. We rode around all over town. We ended up at the moose lodge in Inglewood and I swear it was like a scene out of Pirates of the Caribbean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where I walked in.
Speaker 1:I walked in there and it was just like woo-hoo, woo-hoo, everybody was. It was it's 11 o'clock in the afternoon and everybody's just swinging from the ceiling. Man, it was just like. I felt like I was in Tortuga. It was like it was a pirate's cove man. It was like all right, I get it. I see what the moose is all about and this is fun.
Speaker 2:Don't walk in with a mask on.
Speaker 1:Don't walk in with a mask on. Yeah, they didn't like that at all. You had a mask, oh a mask. It was COVID times back then.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh a mask, right, right right, yeah, somehow that was a political thing, I guess, at the time.
Speaker 1:It quickly became one, yeah.
Speaker 2:Still is probably.
Speaker 1:I don't even want to discuss it. It's over, and I'm thankful for that much. So let's move on.
Speaker 2:The hysteria is over for sure. I think it's here to stay, covid. The hysteria, at least, is over, that's good Kind of like the flu.
Speaker 1:I saw a mask.
Speaker 4:yesterday I went through still people doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we had one in our lodge. We had a potential junior grand warden come and he must have missed the mask. He called me after and he said hey, why didn't that senior deacon want to be in the picture with me? I said, no man, he had COVID, he was trying to help you. He's like oh OK, because if you don't wear a mask, people don't know. He's trying to be responsible and distance according to whatever the guidelines are today. I haven't checked. He used to change often.
Speaker 2:I thought you stayed home for five days yeah yeah, yeah, something like that Five days after you test negative. Five after you test negative? Yeah, but that's the thing. You might not test negative. I've had employees that never tested negative weeks after they had it. You're still testing positive.
Speaker 1:Come to work, yeah right, you're fine, get in here.
Speaker 2:How do you feel? I feel great, get to work.
Speaker 1:Now I don't feel so good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, calling in well, I feel way too good to be coming to work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah, I'm going fishing, that's right.
Speaker 1:Well right, worshpill, it has been a great conversation. Anything you want to share with us on our way out? What's next? What are you excited about? What's next for you?
Speaker 4:I just enjoy doing what I'm doing. We do have a 33rd degree coming up on November 11.
Speaker 2:Some people from our district are going to become 33rds. Yeah, we do have three.
Speaker 4:So we're doing everybody in the state of Florida, unless they went to Washington DC. So, it's fun to be a part of that. They all come to Tampa. Anybody in Florida? That is picked.
Speaker 1:And that's a conferred degree. The final degree is conferred upon you.
Speaker 2:Are you able? As a Scottish Rite Mason and being a nilodge that raises a lot of new guys, they often ask me about the 33rd degree and all I can tell them is what I've been told. Just don't ask anybody about it.
Speaker 1:Do yourself a favor, do yourself a favor and go and ask.
Speaker 2:Is that a thing? Is that a real thing or is that a made-up thing? That has just persisted.
Speaker 4:The way I've always heard it is you're not supposed to ask. And if you do it precludes you from getting it.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure that it's always played out that way. I think there's a difference between the curiosity of what it is and how do I get myself that title. Those are two different questions, Correct? And are you able to talk about at all the 33rd degree, what it is, how you become one, or is that a part of your obligation in the 33rd degree?
Speaker 1:You've got to keep that high. It's a conferred honor.
Speaker 4:It's an honorary degree In the Southern jurisdiction. You have to have been a Knight Commander Court of Honor for four years before you can receive the 33rd degree.
Speaker 2:OK, that's like a prerequisite to even be in the pool of people that are considered.
Speaker 4:I understand that the Norther jurisdiction and I could be totally wrong because I don't belong to the Norther jurisdiction that it's too past, like if you take the KCCH you won't get the 33rd.
Speaker 2:Really, I don't know if that's true or not Interesting.
Speaker 4:But in the Southern jurisdiction one precludes the other and they literally tell you in the KCCH, which is not a degree but a conferment, that getting a red hat that means you're going to get a white hat.
Speaker 3:Got you OK.
Speaker 2:So when you get a red hat, you get some kind of a ceremony that's more of an installation than it is a degree, right?
Speaker 4:Is that what you're saying? Yeah, and it's actually.
Speaker 2:They've been doing it publicly so you get a charge or something where they say, hey, act better or do this or something like that. Ok.
Speaker 4:And they've been doing it in the public. So if you want to see it on the 11th, go to Tampa.
Speaker 2:They're doing the red hats and the white hats on that day.
Speaker 1:OK, and this is from all over the country.
Speaker 4:You said Florida, all over Florida, ok, florida or somebody from another state could come to Florida if they couldn't go somewhere else.
Speaker 3:I see Is something happening with Dima Lee.
Speaker 2:I think I have to bring the kids up for that on the 11th.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. Well, that'd be a great experience for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we are bringing the kids up there.
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Good Dima Lee chapter. Yeah, I was wondering what was going on.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll see you there.
Speaker 2:No, but my wife's family is very anti-Masonry, or used to be. And that's what they lorded over me, that you haven't got all the degrees, and I'm like one and I highly doubt they wait until you're 90 to give you the secrets to be an evil overlord. It's not like they hand that out like candy bars.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm sure you can at least say there's no lizard eating baby sacrificing. Is it safe for you to say in the 33rd degree?
Speaker 4:I can unequivocally say that I've never seen that.
Speaker 2:Excellent, right, yeah, there you go, masonry.
Speaker 1:No matter where you go in Masonry how high you go.
Speaker 2:They teach them to lie in the 33rd degree Right, right.
Speaker 1:What you're seeing is good men trying to be better men and trying to help their brothers. And that's the point right. It builds on becoming a better man for yourself, for your family, for your community and your brothers.
Speaker 4:I like the fact and in this time in this country, I wish more people were influenced by this but the fact that we brought Masonry originally brought men of different. They weren't atheists. Right, they weren't all of the same religious persuasion.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, right.
Speaker 4:But somebody's going well, but they all have value.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:And if we could find a way to work together and just ignore these things that we know we don't agree on, and then work together for what we do agree on.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it.
Speaker 4:Well, this country could use some of that.
Speaker 1:Amen. We say it on the show all the time. Where are you going to find that? Does one of our symposium, at the symposium coming up in January, get your tickets?
Speaker 2:They can't yet, but soon.
Speaker 1:You really need to, yeah, but soon soon we have secured Well, we'll talk about that later on the next show we have a keynote speaker. Now we have a keynote speaker now, which is awesome. But the question we're posing in our small, our short talk is does Masonry have something to offer to this hurting country? And we're going to go through.
Speaker 2:I have no sense. I think so too. Just all the answers to all of our problems, that's all.
Speaker 1:It just has a lot of answers to the young man's problems in this country. Young men are lost and I've been doing the stats for this talk, doing a little of the research on the stats. It's not good man. Young men are really. They're dying. We're losing them and I don't know of a nation that thinks it can survive without strong, well-directed young men. You're out of your mind if you think you're going anywhere without them in the car and they're not in the car. They're killing themselves and they're checking out and they're losing opportunity left and right. So Masonry addresses specifically those things that are missing in a young man's life. Who's out there struggling? So that's one of the things that we're going to be addressing at the symposium, if I can get it together in time, and you and I can.
Speaker 2:You will, you will see.
Speaker 1:You're going to help me, so that's why I know it's going to work.
Speaker 2:It will happen, that's right. I don't know if it'll work, but it'll happen Right.
Speaker 1:Worshpelt, send us out with a positive word, give us something. I'm sorry about putting you on the spot there, but the sound of the music and this is our outro. We always blow it and we do it really bad. Maybe you could actually do a good one. What do you got for us on the way out?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you did put me on the spot. Yes, I did, yes, I did I want to say you guys are doing a great job with this podcast. It's, I think you're reaching a lot of people. Clearly, you got a lot of people signing up. And everybody that I talk to that listens to it, loves it Really. And loves what you're doing.
Speaker 3:So keep up the good work.
Speaker 4:If you're an automation, take a look at it. It might not be for everybody, but I do think that for most men, if they'll give it an honest look and give it a chance, you're going to get something out of it.
Speaker 1:That's the best outro I think we've had to date. Brother Chris, I will see you on the next one and if you've listened to the very end, you are a hero to us and we really appreciate you. Send us your emails at any time, for any reason, under any circumstances.
Speaker 2:Fred at onthelevelwithFredandChriscom, and Chris at on the level of Fred and Chris. If you have any questions for Barry D Hart, send them to us. We can get them answered for you.
Speaker 1:You got it. We'll see you guys next time. All right, great.
