On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
The Hidden Hand of the Templar in Masonic Brotherhood
Embark with us, Fred and myself, on a captivating journey shrouded in the aura of medieval mystery as we unravel the truth behind the Knights Templar and their enduring legacy within Freemasonry. Our exploration is enriched by the wisdom of Doug Dobbs, a District Deputy Instructor, whose deep dive into the Masonic virtues illuminates our path. Together, we strip away the layers of conspiracy to focus on the factual tapestry that weaves together the history of these enigmatic warriors and their architectural marvels, such as the Gothic castles that punctuate Europe's landscape. Along the way, enjoy a few chuckles as we draw playful parallels between the Templars and pop culture icons, because who doesn't appreciate a little humor while digesting centuries of history?
Venture further with us into the labyrinth of the Knights Templar's influence, from their humble beginnings as pilgrim protectors to their rise as financial juggernauts under the aegis of the Catholic Church. We'll probe into the secrets of their wealth—were divine relics the source of their power over the Church, or was it simply their exceptional prowess in banking and military strategy? As we analyze their role within Freemasonry, we'll speculate on whether the skilled guilds of yesteryear shared more than just tools of the trade with these medieval knights. The threads of history entwine as we ponder the Templars' possible refuge in Scotland and their covert operations, linking them to the birth of Freemasonry as we know it today.
Concluding this episode, we're thrilled to tease our forthcoming series on the Master Mason degree, promising to elevate your understanding of Masonic degrees to new heights. As we reflect on the alchemy of history, myth, and personal experience that forms the foundation of our fraternity, we invite you to join us on this quest for knowledge. Whether you're a Masonic veteran or a curious onlooker, our discussion promises to offer fresh perspectives and inspire your own exploration of the connections between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry. So tune in, as we continue to build on the legacy of these legendary guardians.
Hey, chris, yeah, fred, what's a Mason?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question, fred.
Speaker 1:You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry. Join Chris and I as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft, from the common gavel to the trowel. Nothing is off the table, so grab your tools and let's get to work. This is On the Level. Well, brother, we are back. How's it going, man? Oh, hello, that's becoming your signature greeting right there, brother. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, it's definitely a signature greeting at this point. Woo, wow, I'm doing good you doing good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got to bed about one o'clock.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:About six hours sleep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're young and strong so you can handle it.
Speaker 2:Totally Both of those things yeah.
Speaker 1:I was old and weak, so I had to go home right away. What we're alluding to there is we had an EA degree last night.
Speaker 2:Yes, we did.
Speaker 1:Our worshipful master sat in the chair of the east as worshipful master for the degree and I, for some reason, I don't know why they put me as junior warden, which is reckless as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2:You look good over there, yeah, and I almost got my parts right almost. Got them perfect in practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, perfect in practice. Perfect in practice, as usual. Anybody out there who's done it knows exactly what I'm talking about right now Totally flawless. And then, of course, our deputy, our district deputy instructor.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Was sitting in on it, so that helped a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, doug. Yeah, when the right, honorable right district deputy Doug Dobbs walks into your lodge from the 23rd Masonic District, you butt puckers and you sit up a little straighter.
Speaker 1:And let me just say that, which is totally on you if you do that, because he is the most humble gracious man you've ever met in your life, and there's a reason why he's in that position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're saying he's a great example of how a past master should be behaving.
Speaker 1:Right, an elder Mason should carry himself.
Speaker 2:Totally support driven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay All right, sorry, doug, sorry right, where's folks? We'll move on. He can't gavel us. All right.
Speaker 2:This has become the show of Douglas Dobbs of Bradenton, Florida.
Speaker 1:Speaking of what the show is about. Segue you might have noticed the shield and sword over there. Today we're going to talk about the night's Templar. Very excited about that, very excited. And just so you know if you're expecting it to be all that stuff that's on the Internet.
Speaker 2:Well, you haven't listened to the show yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we haven't done the show yet, so we don't even know. Yeah, we're listening.
Speaker 2:Traditionally we don't go into superstitions or hokie pokey stuff. Right, we're talking about real stuff the real history, real history. How does it relate to your life today?
Speaker 1:How can?
Speaker 2:it make you a better person. That's what we're focused on.
Speaker 1:Right Now. For the last couple of days, knowing that this show was coming up, I did a little bit of research and very little. I don't like to over research stuff because that's not what we're about here. On the level with Fred and Chris, we're two guys talking about Freemasonry and the things of Freemasonry, just like you could if you were to sit down with a buddy and talk. It's the same idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's what we're about. But anyway, night's Templar, there's so much junk out there on the Internet.
Speaker 2:We're going to add to the junk.
Speaker 1:And we'll add to the junk. We'll bring our junk to the junk party. That's weird, yes, and so I kind of waded through it. I came down with this the way the non-Mason world sees the night's Templar. I found to be a decent description in the History Channel's website.
Speaker 2:They've done some good documentaries, I think they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're synopsis of it. It's a little long but it's pretty good. It's a pretty good read and in my opinion, I kind of, after doing a lot of online research, as soon as I got the headache thing going, that's when I stopped and I came down with the most reasonable. One would be, like I said, the History Channel one. The rest of it is just contradictory. There's some wacky you know Alex Jones junk out there and all that stuff, and I'm just not into it, man, and we're not going to talk about that here because, like my partner just said, we try to bring the facts, what can be proven, what can be known about it. So anyways, I'm going to go over two and hopefully we continue to. We do, we continue to record Excellent Modern technology.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to read this. It's on the History Channel website and anyone can read it HistoryChannelcom forward slash night's Templar. We'll bring you to it A bunch of research material, footnotes. You know they do a pretty good job. When they do a good job, they do a really good job. That's the way I'm going to say it. Historychannel lately is more about American Pickers than it is about actual history. But that's okay, Not putting them down.
Speaker 2:This is a fun show Pickers.
Speaker 1:You've never seen this show American Pickers, pickers. No, you've never seen American Pickers.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Wow, I have to see it.
Speaker 2:Is this a bad like dumb show?
Speaker 1:It's a reality show Pickers are people who go from, who go and find American artifacts. So they'll come up to an old barn house or an old farm and they'll go in there and they'll pick and they buy stuff and they pick through your stuff and then they sell it at their store, which has made this man, mike Wolfe, a millionaire 100 times 10 times over, for sure and he's a weird dude. He's very colorful, why am I talking about?
Speaker 2:this. I asked you, that's my problem. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:We're getting better at curbing the rabbit trails here a little bit. I think we're starting to catch each other.
Speaker 2:Okay, he's got a beautiful hat and shirt on.
Speaker 1:Oh. I don't know if you're watching the video, but it's beautiful If you're yeah, for those of you who are listening, I am currently donning the new On the Level with Fred and Chris T-shirt and both of us are donning the new On the Level with Fred and Chris hats, which are awesome. I love it. I wasn't sure about the white.
Speaker 2:I got to be honest with you. I'm more picky about hats than I am, so I was more worried about how you'd find them.
Speaker 1:A hat's a big part of my life because I don't have any hair, so that's why it's a huge part. Yeah, hats are important so you approve.
Speaker 2:This is Fred approved now.
Speaker 1:I approve. I approve. I got to be careful with it. It's white. You know, don't work on your car while you're wearing the hat. Put it aside and then work on the car, wash your hands, put the hat back on. Why am I talking about this?
Speaker 2:You know you are matching the colors of the night's Templar.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at that. Wow, the red and the black.
Speaker 2:The red and the black? How apropos, how apropos. I don't even know what that word means. It's French. It's just sounding great to use in that situation, all right.
Speaker 1:Anyways, let me read this. It's a little long, we'll kind of break through it. What I want to do is read this and keep in mind. I kind of I read this so that we kind of have an idea of how the non-Mason world kind of looks at the night's Templar, without all the Alex Jones garbage out there. Okay, this is pretty mainstream.
Speaker 1:Okay, the night's Templar was a large organization of devout Christians during the medieval era who carried out an important mission to protect European travelers visiting sites in the Holy Land, while also carrying out military operations. A wealthy, powerful and mysterious order that has fascinated historians and the public for centuries. Tales of the night's Templar, their financial and banking acumen, their military prowess and their work on behalf of Christianity during the Crusades still circulate throughout modern culture. Who were the night's Templar? That would be a subheading. After Christian armies captured Jerusalem from Muslim control in 1099, during the Crusades, groups of pilgrims from across Western Europe started visiting the Holy Land. Many of them, however, were robbed and killed as they crossed through Muslim controlled territories during their journey. Now we know this is a fact, these are facts. This is proven with ancient writings and stuff. This is not controversial at all no.
Speaker 1:Around 1118, a French knight named Hugues de.
Speaker 2:His name was pronounced Hugh de Pain.
Speaker 1:Hugh de Pain, thank you. Thank you for that pronunciation. Hugh de Pain created a military order along with eight relatives and acquaintances, calling it the poor fellow soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, later known simply as the night's Templar. So that's kind of the basis of it. In support of Baldwin II, the ruler of Jerusalem, they set up headquarters on the city's sacred Temple Mount, the source of their now iconic name, and pledged to protect Christianity, christian visitors to Jerusalem. The Pope's endorsement. This is important. This is historical fact. Initially, the night's Templar faced criticism from some religious leaders, but in 1129, the group received formal endorsement of the Roman Catholic Church and support from Bernard of Clairvaux.
Speaker 2:That's what you'd call jackpot Cha-ching, that would have been cha-ching right there.
Speaker 1:Well, the key word there is endorsement, so it was.
Speaker 2:That's like winning the medieval lottery. That's like if you're Eminem living on the eight mile and Dr Dre just pulls you out of nowhere and says I'll make a record with you. That's what happened to this guy.
Speaker 1:Who's Eminem?
Speaker 2:Eminem is a delicious treat. Okay, but he's also a poor white rapper from eight mile Detroit.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Who got picked up by a guy who made a record with him, and now he's a world famous rapper.
Speaker 1:Oh, a rapper. Okay, yeah, he's pulled out of obscurity, nothingness. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just because he got lucky enough to get a guy who noticed him.
Speaker 1:Not a big rapper.
Speaker 2:I know I'm sorry, I saw the eight mile movie so hopefully the movie's right.
Speaker 1:Okay, perhaps we should do a movie night and I'll watch it with you.
Speaker 2:It's the same as this Like these, this is a nobody, a real nobody.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Who somehow got the highest authority in the land. This is higher than a king. The Pope was higher than the king.
Speaker 1:They're king makers.
Speaker 2:And this were Pope said you're my guy.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And gave him the blessing of the Catholic church at that time. It didn't get any bigger than that. That's like right. Top of the food chain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was an important endorsement. Initially, the Knights Templar faced criticism from some religious leaders, but in 1129 the group received the formal endorsement of the Roman Catholic church and support from Bernard of Clairvaux, a prominent French Abbott. Bernard auth authored, in praise of the new kingdom, a text that glorified the Knights Templar and bolstered their growth.
Speaker 1:So with endorsement came the actual work, media work, to, to to bring this support to the masses In. In 1139, pope Innocent II issued a papal bull that allowed the Knights Templar special rights. Among them, the Templars were exempt from paying taxes, permitted to build their own oriations and were held to no one's authority except the Pope. So they they wore the ring man, they wore the ring so, and when you had that ring, you got out of their way. The Knights Templar set up a prosperous network of banks and gained enormous financial influence. Their banking system allowed religious pilgrims to deposit assets in their home countries and withdraw funds in the Holy Land.
Speaker 2:That's a key.
Speaker 1:That's a key Well it's the first debit card, yeah, the very first debit card. Man, first bank, first debit card, yep.
Speaker 2:This is a key link between the Templars and Freemasonry. That, in particular, is the biggest romantic link between the Templars and Freemasonry, Because legend says that if you, Fred, wanted to deposit your goods at a Templar consistory and then you wanted to go see the Holy Land and maybe you needed some of your cash, you could go to the consistory there in Jerusalem and withdraw your money and spend it there and you didn't have to deal with bandits hijacking you, killing you stealing everything on the path to get there.
Speaker 2:You could see the appeal of that, but they didn't have computers, they didn't have a lot of technology, and so tradition is they would say OK, fred, here's a word. You're going to want to say this word to this person at the consistory when you get there. Or hey, fred, here's a really cool handshake. No one tell no one this handshake. You only give it to the guy at the other end so that he can confirm that you're Fred and this is your stuff.
Speaker 2:I've made the connection. That word, that handshake unlocks your stuff and in Freemasonry we have particular words and particular handshakes which are very important to us and we never tell anyone.
Speaker 1:We are obligated we made an obligation before God to keep those secrets.
Speaker 2:It's kind of silly to Freemason as to why we keep those secrets, but it's a tradition that we've carried on from antiquity and we have links romantically to the guilds and we say, oh, it was important because of this. But some people say it's linked to this piece of the Templar culture.
Speaker 1:It would make sense. Right To me it would make sense.
Speaker 2:It's a possible connection. Sorry, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:This is why we're doing this, so that you can jump in and kind of bring us you know. By the way, tell us where you're at with the Appendant Body known as.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a Night Templar.
Speaker 1:You're a Night Templar, so there's that part.
Speaker 2:So there's that. This is my shield and sword that hangs in my office, which is a Templar shield.
Speaker 1:I have to say, brother, I think this is the wrong motivation, but I would probably become a member of that Appendant Body just for the sword.
Speaker 2:Oh, they don't give you a sword. This has nothing to do with me, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:But you get to buy one for a specific purpose, right?
Speaker 2:And you'll find the same symbolism and you know, probably the most common symbol of the Night Templar, which started as the poor fellow soldiers of Christ in the Temple of Solomon, as you said. Right, that's how they started, so their sigil was two knights riding on a horse together. Oh, Because, they were poor. They couldn't even afford two horses.
Speaker 1:That's what that is. This is them saying look at how poor we are.
Speaker 2:Two knights have to ride on one horse, and that was the sigil. If you ever saw two knights riding on a horse, then you know that was referring to the poor fellow soldiers of Christ in the Temple of Solomon, which later became known as the Night Templar.
Speaker 1:Night Templar. I love that. The order became known for its austere code of conduct. Austere code of conduct which includes no pointy shoes and no kissing their mothers, rules outlined in the rules of the Templars. And signature style of dress which featured a white habit emblazoned with a simple red cross.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Members swore an oath to poverty, chastity and obedience. They weren't allowed to drink, gamble or swear. Prayer was essential to their daily lives and the Templars expressed particular adoration for the mother of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, of course, being Roman Catholic. As the Knights Templar grew in size and status, it established new chapters throughout Western Europe. At the height of their influence, the Templars boasted a sizable fleet of ships, owned the Mediterranean island of Cyprus and served as a primary bank and lending institution to the European monarchs and nobles. Wow, that's no joke.
Speaker 2:Paragraph also opens up a really interesting romantic legend of the Knights Templar, and I think I told you about this one. I'd never saw a documentary, but I think I've read something online about it and it makes a lot of sense. So they had this great shipping fleet and they had this massive wealth. This is known fact Right when they were wiped out in the early 1300s by I'm sure you're going to get there, I won't go there.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:But at some point they were taken out completely, but they never recovered their fleet and they never recovered their wealth, and so the question, through time, has been what the hell happened to the fleet and where did the money go Right?
Speaker 2:Now we know that they operated in the Mediterranean and that they could sail a lot further than that. They were great sailors and they had a huge fleet. So the tradition is that when they were cast out they fled to the Caribbean Right and turned to piracy when they got later in life and piracy, but they set up families in the Caribbean and they populated with the Caribbean culture and they lived in the Caribbean and they had no money. They were very angry at the man at that time, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:And so they would have definitely been more than happy to pick off any French or English ships coming through the Caribbean and just live off of it. And so generations pass and the code is somewhat passed through the generations. And so later you've got these pirates who are living by a warped Templar code, right Called the Pirates Code, and they're sailing their Templar ships in the Caribbean Sea, robbing from the rich and really giving it to the poor and living off of it. And they became later pawns in bigger political games because they needed the power that they still had in the Caribbean to help them when they went to war with each other. So that's a whole story of the Templars that I think deserves a whole lot more looking into Is did that fleet, some of that, wind up in the Caribbean, and were those Pirates of the Caribbean's the offspring of the Knights Templar? Fascinating.
Speaker 1:Fascinating Any time you have the ability to, in some distant way, become a freaking pirate. I'm in I'm in.
Speaker 2:I mean, they were equipped for that Right. They were military trained, they knew how to navigate the seas, they had plenty of money to live off and set up operations. So it's totally possible that that's what happened.
Speaker 1:Wow, all right. This subhead has expanded duties of the Knights. Though its original purpose was to protect pilgrims from danger, the Knights Templar progressively expanded its duties. They became defenders of the Crusader, the Crusader states in the Holy Land, and were known as brave, highly skilled warriors. The group developed a reputation as fierce fighters during the Crusades. Driven by religious fervor and forbidden from retreating unless significantly outnumbered, the Templars built numerous castles and fought, and often won, battles against the Islamic armies. Their fearless style of fighting became a model for other military orders. That that is a true fact. They were known as fierce fighters. These guys, these guys were the elite soldiers of the day.
Speaker 2:But there's some there's. There's just a quick little statement in that last paragraph that bears repeating and looking at.
Speaker 1:You want me to read it again?
Speaker 2:Just that first part.
Speaker 1:The Templars built numerous castles right there the Templars built numerous castles.
Speaker 2:Have you ever seen the Templar castles that were built in France? Can't say I have massive gothic works of art. Gee in the 1100 to 1300s, these guys were building massive Gothic temples all throughout Europe.
Speaker 1:Who built those, I wonder.
Speaker 2:Right right. No one was building those kinds of structures at that time. This was kind of new. I mean, there's a whole style of architecture that's framed after what they did. Right, the Templars, warriors, religious warriors. How were they building huge Gothic temples all over Europe? Well, they weren't all warriors. Legend says that they had many different classes. Right, there were certain classes that only dealt with money and the banking part of their institution. There were sailors they were religious only, people that dealt with local communities and helping them with their religious issues.
Speaker 2:And there were builders a whole class of builders hmm, Craftsmen's that worked with stone and built beautiful Gothic temples all throughout England. Interesting that's a very interesting connection that not a lot of people talk about. They know that there's Templar buildings and they know that they were building these things, but there's no talk about how are they tied to the, the guilds that built those temples, or were they guilds or were they part of the actual order of the nice Templar?
Speaker 1:and what is Freemasonry's Tie it had? It just seems so obvious to me to say that there was at least part of the they surely would have mixed at some point, even if they were too separate, completely not associated organizations.
Speaker 2:The craftsmen's guilds and these Templars had to mix, at least to do business right and keep in mind this is.
Speaker 1:this is the mid 12th century to the early 13th century? Right and we trace it. What 1800, 1700s? Officially, officially for actual masonry, speculative masonry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we have documents of the speculative masonry going back to the 1300s right manuscripts where it's mentioned. And you know, listen. So what we know is they were mixing with craftsmen, highly skilled, demost skilled craftsmen in the world, building these Gothic temples. We know that they had shipping fleets. We know that they were involved with the temple of Solomon, right, what is the whole point of Freemasonry? The building of Solomon's temple? That's right, that's all we talk about. That's all we care about. Okay, I'm being dramatic.
Speaker 1:It's a huge part of free part, huge part of the, the, the, the allegory of Building the temple. I mean it starts. It starts there, that's right, and where did they start?
Speaker 2:They started the ruins of Solomon's ruins of Solomon's temple. Yeah, so they were given exclusive control over that. You know, and there was a large portion of the Templar Militia at the time did nothing but protect pilgrims. But there were others excavating Solomon's site, the site of Solomon's temple. And the question always arises how did these poor knights, who couldn't afford two horses together, wind up the biggest Military force, the biggest financial force, with the biggest shipping fleet in the world? How is that possible?
Speaker 2:Right okay, you get endorsed by the Catholic Church. That's gonna bring a lot of money, for sure. People will start giving you lands and money just because you're Mixing.
Speaker 1:You're endorsed. That's what comes with endorse. We're wearing the ring.
Speaker 2:So sure you can say that some of that could be attributed to that and it is. But Also tradition says that as they excavated Solomon's temple they found many religious relics and that was very important Part of what the church was seeking at the time. They were all looking for religious relics at that time right. Right, like everyone wanted to have the best relics because it gave their particular church the best Pilgrimage and you made the most money. It's always about the money.
Speaker 2:So follow the money, baby and so they would have been sponsored looking for artifacts, and Some people say that they found some artifacts at Solomon's temples ruins.
Speaker 2:It's known to have housed the Ark of the Covenant, which has never been recovered right as well as other artifacts, and, and so that's a big tradition that you hear and you read online is that the Templars discovered some religious Secrets and then they started to control the Catholic Church because they had leverage over them. They had secrets that the church didn't have. That sounds kind of ridiculous to me, because they were sponsored by the church. I would think they would want to play nice with the church, right, as much as possible, right, right, yeah. But over time and I'm sure you're gonna get to it there were other orders that that arose and Also became favored by the church, like the hospital at hospital.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does talk about that years for example Yep, and these were basically competitors of the Knights Templar and at some point the church favored the hospital at tears and tried to get them to merge. They were talking to the Templars like you really need to get with these guys and just can combine, can consolidate, right. But the Grand Master of the Templars resisted that.
Speaker 1:He wanted to remain Separate right, wasn't it over over moral issues, because the this new order was less, less moral, less, you know, straightforward and trustworthy another interesting link no alcohol right gambling yeah cursing.
Speaker 2:You got to pray every day.
Speaker 1:Yep, does that sound familiar to you? It does sound familiar. We don't allow alcohol.
Speaker 2:We don't allow politics Right. We have to pray before everything we do. We have to pray at the end of everything we do. There's a lot connections are never ending between what they do and what we do, so sorry, no no, that's good, this is.
Speaker 1:I think this is pretty good stuff. Okay, the fall of the Knights Templars, the next subheading in the late 12th century Muslim armies retook Jerusalem and turned the tide of the Crusades, forcing the Knights Templar to relocate. Several times the fall of Ark. I think that's good. Oh Acre, yeah, acre, yeah. The fall of Acre in 1291 marked the destruction of the last remaining Crusader refuge in the Holy Land.
Speaker 2:That was basically their headquarters, as they were.
Speaker 1:European support for the military campaigns in the Holy Land began to erode Over the decades that followed. Additionally, many secular and religious leaders became increasingly critical of the Templars wealth and power. By 1303, the Knights Templar lost its last foothold in the Muslim world and established a base of operation in Paris. Their king there, king Philip IV of France, resolved to bring down the order, perhaps because the Templars had denied the indebted ruler additional loans perhaps no, couldn't be about money couldn't be about money, yeah, so that they're bad guys who worship the bathroom it and did all kinds Gay kissing with each other.
Speaker 2:Right, that had to be it. Yeah, yeah about the money, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, right. On Friday, October 13th that's very specific date 1307 scores of French Templars were arrested, including the orders, grand Master.
Speaker 2:Jacques de Molay.
Speaker 1:Jacques de Molay. That's where the de Molay comes from. Many of the Knights were brutally tortured until they confessed to false charges, so which included?
Speaker 2:not even like. That statement doesn't really do justice to what happened, because you know, what happened when you were tortured, right Right, that time it didn't. It wasn't like a one torture session. Yeah, it wasn't waterboarding guys, you got tortured over the course of a year, right? Nothing but constant pain, thrown in a dungeon, constant pain, thrown in a dungeon. Constant pain, thrown in a dungeon Over the course of a year. That's the kind of torture we're talking here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you put we did a fraction of that. We'd borderboard a few guys for like a few days and they'd give up anything we wanted, right right, oh yeah, absolutely Just a threat of it. Imagine real torture over the course of a year. What could you get out of somebody? What could you get them to say that they did anything is the answer right? They would say anything to make the torturer stop and to die. That's really all they wanted at that point was to just die.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because all the torturers wanted was false confessions.
Speaker 2:So that's all they wanted.
Speaker 1:They didn't need it to be true, they just needed to be able to say that. Yeah, before he died, he confessed that he was this, that and the other, and and it happened.
Speaker 2:It happened time and time again, not just with the Templars, because this was the modus operandi of the day if you wanted to take somebody out, you got the Pope to say that they did these things. Right and it was always these few things that you got brought up on charges for and you got tortured until you admitted it, and then they killed you, right and boom, just as a search.
Speaker 1:Yeah, justice this kind of justice we have today anyway, different story. Many of the nights were brutally tortured until they confessed to False charges, which included heresy, homosexuality, financial corruption, devil-worshipping, fraud and spitting on the cross. A few years later, dozens of Templars were burned at the stake in Paris for their confessions false confessions. D Millay was executed on in 1314. Under pressure from King Philip, pope Clement the fifth were luckily dissolved. The Knights Templar. In 1312, the groups, property and and Monastery and monetary assets were given to rival orders. The, the Knights Hospitallers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a hard one to say. Hos PIT a LDL DRS hospital tears.
Speaker 1:However, it's thought by some Sorry about that, guys, the groups, property and monetary assets were given to a rival order, the Knights hospitalers. However it's, it's thought by some that King Philip and King Edward the 2nd of England sees most of the Knights Templars wealth, and I would probably agree with that because they're inbred royals and that's what they do.
Speaker 2:Well, interesting, it was Friday the 13th right in the 1300s. Oh, and that is it. That is another romantic tradition that we like to say that Friday the 13th comes from this, the day that they try to take out the Templars.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, as every, every Mason knows every little quib no of course it's all because it comes from Masonry, right yeah? Black bald.
Speaker 2:There's one that everybody saw us, that's, us, that's right, we invented those terms all these terms come from us man. Yeah, that's our proud traditions.
Speaker 1:All right, the next heading is the Knights Templar today, which I find I find interesting. So the the Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, has acknowledged that the persecution of the Knights Templar was Unjustified. The church claims that Pope Clement was pressured by secular rulers to destroy the order. Okay, that's what he claims.
Speaker 2:The word claim here is right, right, but he's one of them, right, he's the inside man. He knows what really went down better than anybody else in the world.
Speaker 1:That's right, and there's no way to know. But I mean, come on, we know, we know politicians, we know people, and we know people. That's right. Well, most historians agree that the Knights Templar fully disbanded and fully disbanded 700 years ago. There are some people who believe the order went underground and remains in existence in some form to this day. Well, that we know. I got one sitting right across from me. In the 18th century, some groups, most notably the Freemasons, revive several of the medieval Knights symbols, rituals and traditions. Currently there are several international organizations Styled after the Knights Templar that in the public, that the public can join. These groups have representatives around the world and aim to uphold the values and traditions of the original medieval order. Throughout the years, various tales have surfaced about the Knights mysterious work. More recently, stories about the legendary Templars have found their way into popular books and movies. Some historians have claimed that the Knights Templar may have secretly Guarded the shroud of Turin. The linen cloth that people claim is the face of Christ for hundreds of years after the Crusades ended.
Speaker 1:Another widespread belief is that the Knights discovered and kept religious artifacts and relics such as the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant as parts as and parts of the cross from Christ's crucifixion. Various other ideas and myths exist about the Knights Templar's secret operations. The popular novel and film the Da Vinci code presented a theory that the Templars were involved in a conspiracy to preserve the bloodline of Jesus Christ. Although much of these speculations are considered fictional, there is no question that the Knights Templar have provoked intrigue and fascination and will likely continue to do so for many years in the future.
Speaker 2:No doubt about that, and even within our fraternity. I did a debate with the worship of David Finkelstein and the lodge liked it, and so we did it in a couple of other lodges about this.
Speaker 2:Wow and we're divided about. Is this real? Is it not real, where the Templars really connected? This is just a romantic tradition. We're trying to gain some fame from these. You know famous people and there is a huge group of Masons that say that it's it's all BS, it's all stories, not real. And Then there's another large group of masons that are Knight Templars that really believe that this is a continuation of the original Knights Templar, that we're living the way that they lived in some small way and they love to. You know, lean into the fact that they are Knights Templars and they're living the ideals of the original Knight Templars. I wish that the outfits were like the original Knight Templars, because this is why I don't really get involved too much. Their outfits are not like the original Knight Templars to have that Captain Crunch hat and the Confederate outfits, and yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's not awesome, the outfits aren't awesome, but, um, you know the ideals, you know.
Speaker 2:There's just so much that you can link between the two and if you're thinking critical thinking, reasonable person, I don't think you can come to any other conclusion. Then there's an actual link, historical link that existed. That is being continued. Yes, we didn't come out of the closet until the 1700s. Yes, it was shortly after that that we linked the Templars to Freemasonry officially. But we know that Freemasonry existed prior to the 1700s. Correct, we know this. Why wouldn't it make sense that we were practicing those Templar traditions prior to when we publicly said we did Shortly after we came out of the closet in the 1700s?
Speaker 1:Well, it leads to that assumption, right, that assumption. The the facts in quotes kind of lead lead you to that assumption. That's right.
Speaker 2:Why would this craftsman's guild have a position called the Marshall? That's a military position, right? Why would a craftsman guild have a military position as part of its order? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense historically speaking and there's so many more links you know in in In traditional Freemasonry, the in an apprentice, the fellow craft, in the master Mason. We don't talk about Templars at all.
Speaker 2:Right we don't say the name. It's not part of any of our traditions. But if you dig deeper and we have secret societies within secret societies that we call independent bodies, so in both the main two, which is the Scottish right in the York right, both of those bodies culminate in stories about the Knights Templar right the late degrees in both bodies you become some fashion of night Templar in their, in their degrees and in their traditions.
Speaker 2:So the Scottish right tells tales of Templars escaping France and England and finding refuge in Scotland, because Scotland had already been excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:So it would have been a safe haven for anyone that was also excommunicated from the Catholic Church. And you can imagine, in exchange for staying there, they would ask for something in return, and the world has always wondered how did Scotland, this ragtag group of brave heart guys, that's right the brave heart guys.
Speaker 2:How did they actually defeat the largest army of the world that ever seen? Right Well, the thinking man and the freemason traditions tell us that the elite army had found refuge there, and we're fighting alongside those guys Because they wanted to survive. So in Scotland, robert the Bruce assisted in setting up an order for them, and in the Scottish Rite we call that the Come on now. Come on, chris, use your brain. I'm one. Well, there's an order in the Scottish Rite and I'm a member of it, okay, and it's really a service order in the Scottish Rite.
Speaker 2:Their tradition is about helping, so when they have reunions they're the guys that will greet you at the door. They'll take your passes, they'll take your money, they'll make sure they shuttle people in and out. They're really just there for support. They don't ask anything in return. And in the York Rite you actually literally call yourself a night Templar and you're conferred. The final degree is a conferral of you being knighted as a night Templar in the old traditions.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's all traditions.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've been through all the degrees, all of them, and that last degree in the York Rite, that Templar degree is on another level. Man, it's just so cool, it's everything you want in freemasonry and I can't get into it much. No right Other than to say, if you, you know, just to get the information, I would join the York Rite just to go through those degrees, because it's pretty dang impressive.
Speaker 1:Now, do I understand it correctly that if you go all the way, Night of St Andrews, sorry, night of St. Andrews, that's it. That's it Good. See as soon as you stop to train your thought it popped into your head and whatever I was going to say popped right out of my head.
Speaker 2:Sorry Dang. Unbelievable. Thank you for the vibes. I needed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no worries, sorry, you had to sacrifice yours. No, no, no, no, hey. So the a couple of things. One, when, when you're looking at history, especially like ancient history, we always go back to the names are really important, like, for instance, when having being a Christian and having studied the scriptures for a long time, one of the one of the keys to apologetics is looking at the historicity of the gospels. One of the key figures of the gospel is Pontius Pilate, and he's mentioned in he's mentioned in three of the four gospels very clearly as a district governor for Rome in that region. That is historical fact. There is no question. No one questions the fact that that man lived, and, and and governed the way he governed. It would be, and there's other ways of looking. Now, when you look through the history of the Knights Templar, you see historical figures. Clement of Clairvaux is a real person. That's a verified fact.
Speaker 2:He was a pope Right. He issued a lot of papal bulls that are on record.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's, it's, it's. This isn't Alex Jones speculation man. There is a lot of historical fact here. The connections are really where we're is really what people talk about.
Speaker 2:You know, because it's not okay. Here's the document that the Templars and the Freemasons signed together as proof that they're working together like Right. Right, you don't have that document, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:And by nature. Let's see Freemasonry and Scottish Rite, york Rite, knights Templar. Those are organizations based in secrecy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it might stand a reason that they didn't broadcast a lot of the stuff that they were doing back then, because they were, you know, well, they were on the lamb right. They were on the run from the popo, from the popo.
Speaker 2:The popo. That's right, the popo. I didn't even notice how punny that was until you reacted.
Speaker 1:The popo. So I find the entire idea of the Knights Templar, especially when you get into the Caribbean.
Speaker 2:Juicy stuff.
Speaker 1:there it's really, really hard to. It's not really hard to figure that Masonry made its way into. If you go to the Caribbean, there's a temple I was a temple, sorry. There's a lodge on just about every one of them. Islands out there, man, they're everywhere.
Speaker 2:So there's just so much that we could get into here. That's a logical connection that we could make.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:A historical connection, but that's where people want to live, is in the possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, not in the real. In the real yeah.
Speaker 2:And the possible sometimes is the real. You just have to get there by thinking about it. So we had people on the lamb on the run from the popo and Scotland, for example. This is one place we know that they probably went to and found refuge. They certainly had the desire to continue to worship their God, even though the church turned on them. Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Imagine the feeling of having the head of the church turn on you and say political gain all these bad things, these lies about you and you see your brothers and pain and torture and your whole order fallen because the head of your church turned is back on you because of political pressure. Now you still love God. Probably Nothing's going to take that.
Speaker 1:Right. Nothing's taken their devotion to Christ away.
Speaker 2:But you sure don't trust the church anymore after that. In fact, you might have very bad feelings about organized religion after that. Now, Freemasonry is the system. We welcome anyone that worships God, but we don't want to hear anything about your religion.
Speaker 2:Right we don't want to talk about your organized religion. It doesn't matter what it is, it's not part of Freemasonry. That's a pretty strong you know. You're walking the same path as the Templars there and they would have still wanted to, you know, show their respect for God if they met in organized way. The other thing that follows is, if you're in the Scot, if you're somewhere in Scotland, you have a lodge of Freemason where you're now meeting and you're worshiping God there in your way and you're talking about. You know how you can help your community and build it back up from devastations of war. It's going to become really important that nobody snitches you out because you're on the land. So if you bring a new guy into that situation, you don't want him to see your face. You don't want him to hear your voice. You don't want him to know who you are. Until he's made that obligation that he's going to keep the secrets. Your family's at stake.
Speaker 2:You probably set up home. You probably have a wife at this point, you probably have children. A stranger could take that all away from you. It's never made a whole lot of sense historically as to why there's so much secrecy in the degrees of Freemasonry. They try to rationalize that it's a guild and it's important to keep the secrets of the guild or whatever. But these obligations are intense.
Speaker 1:They're intense because of life and death.
Speaker 2:Don't do it or you're a bad boy.
Speaker 1:Don't do it, or this horrible thing might happen to you, your wife and children being murdered in front of you and you being taken away and tortured. The obligation itself isn't a simple friendly obligation.
Speaker 2:They're very old school harsh obligations. If you do this, something bad will happen to you. In Freemasonry we don't do that. We don't really follow it. It's just part of our tradition that we carry on. But where did the tradition come from? Why would a craftsman guild have put such a harsh penalty on a man for just saying the name of somebody that was a member of the organization? That doesn't make a lot of sense. People that are on the run from the largest political and religious organization on the face of the planet would have a lot to lose from somebody that they don't know getting into their stuff. It would make a whole lot of sense that you take all these extra steps of protection and not until they obligated themselves under God and you were sure that they're a good person would you let them see who you really are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, that's right so those traditions in Freemasonry today could be, in my mind, very directly linked to the excommunicated Templars getting more involved in the Masonic organizations.
Speaker 1:Well, the timing certainly is right. If you look down through history you know we're talking from 1100 down through to the 1800s. If you look at what we just read through that synopsis. You know of the history of it and what we just talked about it. The timing is certainly there, historically, chronologically. What they believe is clearly possible chronologically.
Speaker 1:It does fit into you know the string of time that we're talking about, and then add to that the historical figures that are there. And for me, you know, for me it's it's always about plausibility. What is the most plausible explanation for anything? What? The reason why I originally became a Christian at all was because the question that bothered me for, you know, most of my young life is why am I here? Why am I here? What is the most plausible explanation for why am I? Why I am? I am here and I spent many, many years seeking that out, figuring out what I believe and why I believe it. I landed in Christianity. I hold to the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most plausible idea. Anyway, we'll go on and on about that on another show or perhaps another format, but plausibility, what is the most plausible explanation? Not because there are no guarantees when it comes to ancient history.
Speaker 2:There's no smoking gun, there's no right Even. Isn't that? What? Isn't that what historians do?
Speaker 1:Right, that's where they make their money, man, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:Fill in the blanks with the story.
Speaker 1:What is the most plausible explanation for those things we cannot completely concretely prove?
Speaker 2:And then they say this is what we, as experts, believe happened and we accept it as fact.
Speaker 1:And then you tell the person you're speaking to. I leave it to you. You figure it out, you go study it, you do the work because you know the things you believe matter as far as your worldview goes. You look at the world through the glasses of what it is you believe. So why not take the time to figure out what you believe and why you've and you've heard me on this podcast say it over and over again Know what you believe and know why you believe it. Otherwise it's not worth it. It's not worth it because you're just bouncing from one idea to another.
Speaker 1:What is it you believe? What is the most plausible explanation for the thing that's in front of you? What is the most plausible explanation for the Knights Templar? What is the most plausible explanation for the relationship between masonry free and accepted masonry and the Knights Templar and the Scottish Rite? You're great. I love this conversation, man. I think it's great. I think it's really enriching and for anybody out there and apparently we are now global, so there's lots and lots of people listening to us. Thank you very much. We very much appreciate it. We are blown away and I just I don't know what else to say, but there's probably somebody out there at least one person out there is thinking, yeah man, I'm going to check this out.
Speaker 2:I want to look into this and we encourage you to do so.
Speaker 1:And then we also encourage you to send us an email and share with us what you found so that we can share that email in an upcoming episode that we're going to call. Fred and Chris answer your emails which is coming up, but I do want to talk a little bit about the series. Four-part series. We're starting next week.
Speaker 2:Yes, we will come back to this.
Speaker 1:We will go deeper on the Templars, absolutely Like everything we're doing, we just want to.
Speaker 2:This is the beginning of our pot.
Speaker 1:This is season one. Season one.
Speaker 2:On level of Fred and Chris. So we're touching on the surface of as much as we can.
Speaker 1:Chris is waving his arm right now as he speaks. For those of you who are only listening.
Speaker 2:He's aren't the droids you're looking for. Leave on. If only it was that easy by the power of the Knights Templar. I did cry.
Speaker 1:Okay, so was that a rubber trail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say so.
Speaker 1:Okay, so back to our four-part series coming up is you've asked for it, we're going to do it. Master Mason degree.
Speaker 2:Lessons from the.
Speaker 1:Master Mason degree. It will be four parts.
Speaker 2:I'm holding up three fingers.
Speaker 1:I don't know Four fingers. There you go. It'll be in four parts. We're going to break down the Florida, the Grand Lodge of Florida's mentoring manual which has I want to say it's 28 subsections. And we're dividing it into four and I've gone through, divided them out and then kind of came up with a synopsis of each little thing. We want to do a better job. We first did this with the EA degree and that was two parts and it was a very, very popular. That's what you guys want. You guys really want.
Speaker 2:Probably our most popular podcast. Yeah, yeah, the EA degree ones, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then we tried to do a little better job with the Fellowship fellowcraft degree. That was three part, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 2:Could have been four. Could have been four part.
Speaker 1:And now, with the Master Mason degree, it will be four part and we're hoping to present you guys with something that's a little more in depth and a little more well crafted. But, like Chris said, this is our first season and we're just kind of putting this together and we're looking forward to getting the podcast to a place where it's a little bit more polished as far as the tech and editing goes, but never, ever get to the point where we don't do this. What we're doing right here and right now is just talking to guys, to masons, talking about the craft Anything.
Speaker 1:The fraternity that they love. Yeah, and trying their best to stay on topic yeah.
Speaker 2:Trying their best.
Speaker 1:We'll get better at it or worse or worse, better or worse, but we're not going anywhere, so we'll always be here and keep in mind that the both of us have full time jobs and careers that we deal with. We do this part time.
Speaker 2:And Freemasonry, which is a second full time job, Freemasonry which is a second full time job.
Speaker 1:Just ask our wives. Yep, absolutely so. Anything else, Chris, Give us a round. A brief little summation of the Knights Templar on our way out.
Speaker 2:Well, the Knights Templar and Freemasonry and Freemasonry.
Speaker 2:I believe personally, are inextricably linked through time, and we know that they both existed before the Grand Lodge came out with Freemasonry publicly in the 1700s. We know they both intermingled before then, and we know that Freemasonry became a thing in the 1700s and then, shortly after that, we publicly came out with Templarism and Freemasonry, and that, in my mind, that continuation of events is Plain as day, and so the traditions of the Templars. If you're a Freemason, you haven't joined an independent body. I would encourage you to do so. Like Fred said, experience them for yourself, do a little history for yourself, and then let us know where you wind up on this subject. We're curious to know, yeah, which side of the, which side of the tracks you are, and most of the people that say there's no link, I found haven't done a whole lot of research.
Speaker 1:Which is typically the case, it's easier to say no than it is to do the research and be able to bring you know A plausible explanation.
Speaker 2:sure, so the summation for me is that the more we talk about this and the more we think about it and the more we read about it, the more we're gonna see how strong the connections were between.
Speaker 1:Are between.
Speaker 2:Templars, and you know there was a. We didn't get into it, but one of the things that they got in trouble for was worshiping the head, worshiping a severed head. That's one of the claims that was made against them right and seems unsanitary, but yeah, well, the tradition is it was John the Baptist head that they were worshiping Out in the field, because they were desperate for religious relics, and they found the head of John the Baptist and worshipped it and, as you know, john the Baptist is a big part of our fraternity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, every one of our page dedicated to him. Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:But these links will never stop, the more we keep talking about it. Yeah, no, it goes right, it goes, it goes.
Speaker 1:I'll stop, I'll stop use you, stop remember plausibility. What is the most plausible explanation for the thing that you're digging into? That that's a great premise to begin any study with. What is the most plausible Explanation based on your own research?
Speaker 1:Okay my brother. I think this is a pretty good podcast man. I hope we get a lot of success on it. Whenever we go into Masonic history and or Masonic teaching, you guys seem to respond really well to it. I hope this is. I hope this offering is is one in the same. And next week, like I said, we start a four-part series on master Masonry, which I think is going to be a really great conversation. So make sure, guys, that you you tune in. Please share the podcast with anybody you know that you think might want to hear it. Send your emails to Fred at on the level with Fred and Chris, calm and Chris at on the level of Fred and Chris.
Speaker 2:Now is the time to send emails if you have unique thoughts, ideas or Anything to do with the master Mason degree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:Particularly the second half of the master Mason degree, because we're gonna get into the first half quickly. Yeah, but if you send us your emails now about your thoughts on the second half, we can adopt them as part of our talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah and just anything but definitely that would be great. Yeah, send us now to bring that in to the four-part series that that we're coming out with here. So that would be really awesome. Well, once again, brother, we get, we get the privilege, an opportunity to sit and talk about one of our well, our favorite subject, which is free Masonry. Yes, shout out to every brother out there who calls himself a Mason and who is, who's dedicated to the work of his lodge. Good on you, brother.
Speaker 2:Good on you, and this is a blessing for me. You know I got to sit here with my brother Before the podcast started. We had to grab something out of my car. We went out there and he's the type of guy that turned to the Sun and said thank you.
Speaker 2:Lord for this blessing of the Sun on my face to start my day, and what a great example of a good Mason and somebody who just appreciates your creator and the little things that he gives you to make your life a little better, because it's hard. Life is hard and that was a great reminder to me. You gotta appreciate this small. You have to approach life from a place of appreciation. Yeah, that's right, I've been watching a lot of alone, many seasons now alone, oh no and now it's great.
Speaker 2:I'm not an outdoorsman, so I'm fascinated by this. One thing that the best have in common is Appreciation, that's how they get through hard times.
Speaker 1:They just appreciate gratitude.
Speaker 2:Appreciation for the water, for the Sun, for the breath in your lungs. It's gonna make your life go a whole lot easier. So follow my brother Fred Appreciate the little things. It makes your life a lot more enriched and also enriches the life. So those around you, like he did for me today. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're welcome, brother, and follow Fred and Chris on the level with Fred and Chris on Apple podcast and Spotify. We're on all of them, you can find us on all of them. But if you go to Apple podcast, please, please, please, leave us a five star rating and give us even if you're not happy with us Five star rating and then you can rail against us all you want in the comments section.
Speaker 1:We would greatly appreciate it. That puts us higher and higher on the rankings for Apple podcast, as I'm sure y'all know, and as far as YouTube goes. Thanks, we're just trying YouTube. It's fun to put it out there. I'm starting to get some some comments there. But if you would hit that like button and subscribe, that also helps us and it supports the show. So until next time, my brothers Beyond the level.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you, and we appreciate you and we're looking forward to talking about the master Mason degree.
Speaker 1:Come on back All right, we're out later oh.
