On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Master Mason Degree: Debating Freemasonry's Future while Honoring Its Past
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Join the celebration as we mark a momentous occasion of 4,000 downloads—a heartfelt thanks to you, our listeners, for making this journey incredible! While I had to forgo the pleasure of witnessing a Fellow Craft degree due to a personal setback, life’s unpredictable nature is balanced by the unexpected joy of meeting a brother from Hillsboro Lodge, who found inspiration in our dialogues. It's proof that our shared Masonic values resonate in the world at large. Moreover, we ignite a vibrant discussion with a distinguished Masonic mind, exploring the complex layers of the Master Mason degree. Your thoughts are the lifeblood of this conversation, and we invite you to contribute to the evolving narrative of our proud fraternity.
Have you ever pondered over the Masonic term 'dodage' and its implications for inclusivity within our ranks? This episode shines a light on the challenges and responsibilities we face when embracing brethren of all abilities. We delve into the profound responsibility of investigative committees, the nuanced meaning of 'libertine' through the ages, and the implications of these terms on the integrity and judgment within our ancient order. It's a candid reflection on the delicate balance between tradition and evolution, and the collective wisdom we can harvest from it.
We round out this episode by threading through the rich tapestry of Masonic culture, from the symbolism of signs and tokens to the intricate details of the Master Mason's working tools. Whether you're donning an apron or simply curious about the allure of Masonic practices, this episode offers a treasure trove of insights, including the often-controversial subject of women in Freemasonry. With each topic, we reaffirm our commitment to the meaningful traditions that define us, all the while embracing the diverse perspectives that challenge us to grow.
Exploring Freemasonry and Encouraging Debate
Speaker 1Hey , chris , yeah , fred , what's a Mason ?
Speaker 2That's a really good question , fred .
Speaker 1You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry . Join Chris and I as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft , from the common gavel to the trowel . Nothing is off the table , so grab your tools and let's get to work . This is On the Level 4,000 downloads . Are you kidding me , chris ? April Fool's no , 4,000 downloads . I know that's no way to start a show professionally , but , as you people know , fred and Chris are not professionals . Yeah , we have 4,000 downloads guys Wow . I am so impressed that blows my mind .
Speaker 2Thank you to everybody listening . And then we had a fellow craft degree two days ago .
Speaker 1Which I sadly missed because I had an issue at home which we're not going to talk about . Go on .
Speaker 2It's a difficult issue for you to talk about .
Speaker 1Yes , I , at this point in my life , I am an animal abuser . But we'll save that for another show . He's not .
Speaker 2He had to give his dog a haircut , so we had a brother from Hillsboro Lodge come to our fellow craft degree . They apparently meet on the same nights we meet , and so he's been trying to get down there for a long time and it was just awesome because he was there because of the podcast . He wanted to meet you .
Speaker 1I know , and brother , all he had was me .
Speaker 2And it was very disappointing for him .
Speaker 1No , it was not . It was not . It's an honor to meet Worshiple Chris Burns . However , to the brother , I'm so sorry , man , I had just the most heartbreaking issue at home . Not the most , but I had a heartbreaking issue at home which we won't talk about , even though I seem to be determined to talk about it here on the show , but I am coming on the 13th , 18th .
Speaker 2I believe the brother said he'd be down at Phoenix Lodge on the 13th or 18th , I will be there . We have a degree on the 18th , they have one on the 13th . Okay , on the 13th .
Speaker 1I will be there with arms wide open , my brother .
Speaker 2John . His name was John .
Speaker 1And if your name isn't John , please keep in mind that we are not professionals . Yes , always remember . We have no idea what we're doing .
Speaker 2No idea what we're talking about right before we went on air , I believe the mantra I heard you repeating was where am I ? What am I doing ?
Speaker 1Yeah , when am I and what am I doing ?
Speaker 2I say that a lot Hi Free masonry podcast on the level . I had a company meeting in my office today and it's bled into my company now . Somebody said oh man , how did this come up ? It was like it was totally unrelated . Somebody used the word level .
Speaker 1Oh , okay .
Speaker 2And it wasn't even on the level . It was like I want to level with you kind of a situation and they said , like , like , like his podcast , oh , that's so funny and I said you guys , don't even , not even funny .
Speaker 1Oh my gosh , it's not even accurate . It's creeping into all aspects of life and you know it's . You know growth means life , man , and this thing's growing and you guys are the reason for it . And we couldn't , we couldn't , be more blessed and honored . And again , our commitment to you is we're not , we're not going to stop doing it , and it's always . We're always going to speak the truth and we're always going to push the boundaries Because we want free masonry to be all that it is supposed to be in this , in this town , in this state and in this country and in this world , man , so what are we talking about today ?
Speaker 2Chris , the master , mason degree .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , this would be three .
Speaker 2We had the second one . The second part in the series was released and got challenged by a prominent masonic figure publicly , which led to a very vigorous private exchange .
Speaker 1Really , I had no idea . Why don't you explain ?
Speaker 2Do you want me to ?
Speaker 1No .
Speaker 2Okay , but that is the purpose of what we're doing here is to spark conversation . That's exactly right , that's what I was getting at Like that's what we are hoping happens in your lodges and with your friends is that you hear something you're like you know yeah what do ? You think about this and you start talking about it , right , I'm sure you have your own opinion about some of the stuff we say , and our stuff gets posted in a lot of places , so you should leave your opinion like that .
Speaker 1Absolutely . And what ?
Speaker 2the prominent masonic brother did , because we are not afraid to hear it .
Speaker 1No , that's right . That's right Because if we cannot disagree in love with respect , then I don't know what we're doing .
Speaker 2That is definitely part of what we're trying to do .
Speaker 1That's right , yeah , that's right , gentleness and respect , and if you disagree with us , you go to the front of the line and we will always hear what you have to say with gentlemen . And to that brother we would say that you know you are a fellow Mason and you will always be a fellow Mason and we respect you and we want more . We want more . Yeah , we definitely want more Lively debate , discussion , absolutely , that's what we should all be striving for yeah , man , I'm talking about it .
Discussing Dodage and Masonic Service
Speaker 2Challenging our beliefs and our ideas . Yeah , it's good . This is good for the fraternity , so that actually , well , another person might have seen it as a negative . I saw it as a and I told him look at how awesome this is , what we're doing right now Right .
Speaker 2Yeah , we've got the most obscure points of a ritual and free masonry and it's good , good for them , good for us , yeah , and if we can do a publicly good for everybody , that I would enjoy to be a part of , to have an open discussion , point , counterpoint , kind of discussion over , you know , over the tenets of masonry .
Speaker 1I think that would be just absolutely awesome , so fun . And it's not about a winner and a loser . No , no , no , it's not about making somebody look stupid . No , no , or trying to make yourself look good .
Speaker 2It's about legitimately showing people that you can have different ideas about the same thing , and both might be right .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right , that's right .
Speaker 2Both might be accurate and correct . That's the beauty of free masonry , and so hopefully , if any of you would like to invite us , we'll debate , yeah absolutely . Anything anywhere , anytime in public .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right , and we don't come as experts in any field . We're not , you know , credentialed on anything . We're just two guys that feel very passionate about masonry . Now my partner , chris , is far more versed in the tenets of masonry . He's been in it a lot longer . He is currently my worshipful master at the Mighty 147 in Sarasota , florida , so he's definitely a wealth of information regarding masonry and I learned , I learned from him every day from those things . But neither of us would come to a place to do a friendly discussion , open discussion , point counterpoint discussion , in a spirit of anything but love and education and furthering the craft . So I think we've beat that one to death enough , chris .
Speaker 2You want to move on ? We did it once . We did a little debate in Lodge about the nice Templar , oh right , and it went great .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right , it was entertaining too , and it was entertaining as well , which is always good .
Speaker 2Anyways , we're here for the Master Masonry , All right .
Speaker 1Master Masonry . Well , we are currently going through , as many of you know , the Florida Mentors Manual , that's GL 217 , revised 2008 version of the Mentors Manual . We are currently on page 20 , sorry , page 21, . 5.8 , paragraph 5.8 , Masonic explanation of dodig fool , libertine and profane .
Speaker 2Well , I'm actually looking forward to hearing this one , because I never Googled what dodig is . I mean , I kind of have an idea in my mind , but I don't know for sure .
Speaker 1It does a pretty good job here of kind of laying it out . Let's do the first paragraph and then we'll talk a little bit about it . Okay , yeah , dodig is a condition associated with old age and is marked by juvenile desires , loss of memory and failure of judgment . Medical science cannot fix any given age at which this condition occurs , since it varies from person to person . The lodge itself must determine whether the petitioner is thus afflicted and comes under this classification . So I did my own definition of it . So someone who is mentally or so mentally or physically sorry guys , I don't know too much coffee , not enough coffee , I don't know mentally or physically incapable for Masonic service . So somebody who is incapable , because of the physically or mentally incapable , of performing Masonic service to themselves and others , I think would be Like , for example , too old to stand up to do the great work .
Speaker 1Not necessarily that I don't think standing anything like that . I think that somebody who is perhaps early onset dementia that gets to a point .
Speaker 2Mentally , we're talking Mentally , yeah .
Speaker 1I'm sure there's physical conditions that would make it hard for the brother to enjoy his Masonic career , as well as a burden on the lodge itself , though I think that would be pretty obscure . I don't know what lodge would not accept a brother . Yeah , we'd do everything they could . I know our lodge would . We would do everything we could to bring a brother in who desires to be part of it . But there comes a point where you know , is it good for that brother ? You know , does it harm him , does it harm the lodge ? You know , and anyway , so the word doadage go about that .
Speaker 2We had it not when I was at another lodge as my home . We had a brother come in with that was missing a leg .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2And nobody really was sure how to handle that situation . So we actually contacted Grand Lodge and had them put in writing that it was okay to initiate him .
Speaker 1Oh nice .
Speaker 2Because there were parts of the ritual that would be difficult to represent without an appendage .
Speaker 1Oh , okay , right , yeah , I didn't think about that .
Speaker 2Yeah . So we were like man , how do we handle this ? Can he go through ? And they did allow him to go through .
Speaker 1That's awesome .
Speaker 2That's awesome that came from Grand Lodge , so I think that's probably the right way to handle it . If you're not sure , contact Grand Lodge . They don't mind taking your questions if they're in good spirit and they're going to tell you exactly what to do .
Speaker 1It's kind of what they're there for . You're off the hook Right , exactly , exactly . Because then you got into writing from the big bosses .
Speaker 2So that's what they're saying here is mainly about the mental . Yeah , I think so .
Speaker 1Dodage is a condition associated with old age and is marked by juvenile desires , loss of memory and failure of judgment .
Speaker 2I'm not sure what juvenile desires like you want to play video games a lot .
Speaker 1I don't know I would like to get a clarification on that . Maybe we can talk to our brother right Worshipple Dobbs . Maybe he could point us in the right direction .
Speaker 2You know , because when you get older you just stop caring as much about how people view you . I think there comes a point in a man's life where he just doesn't care anymore . But I don't think that's what they're talking about . They're talking about somebody who's literally losing their capacity to have an adult conversation with you without slipping off into making jokes about something unrelated , for example maybe that's , I think so , juvenile desires .
Speaker 1Don't know , maybe they just get to a , I don't know . I'm not even going to try to go into it , because it could be one of those old English translations that came from way , way back that it might be something completely different .
Speaker 2Well , the Oxford Dictionary has got a much shorter definition . It says the period of life in which a person is old and weak . Oh okay , Dotaage Example you could live here and look after me in my dodaage .
Speaker 1Right , which I think everybody kind of . When they hear that word they kind of know that .
Speaker 2That's kind of what I thought it meant Right . Just getting to that stage of your life where you're old , and old to the point where you need assistance to live .
Speaker 1Yeah , if any of you guys out there- understand what juvenile desires might mean or does mean you know , email us please , so we can talk about it .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1A loss of memory and failure in judgment . So obviously yeah this is a Dudaage .
Speaker 2Yeah , dodaage so this is an age-related issue .
Speaker 1Somebody comes in who wants to petition and they're , you know , obviously incapable of you know . I would say that you know you get to a point in your life where you're not going to be able to do catechism .
Speaker 2Do you think that's the spirit of the meaning behind not allowing someone in their dodaage ?
Speaker 1I think I'm going to say that the spirit behind it is would it benefit the brother who is petitioning to go through ?
Speaker 2it , so it would be too frustrating for him .
Speaker 1It might make him look and feel foolish , and us as people , in our right minds , have a responsibility to make sure that this person is not . I'm going to look at it that way .
Speaker 2That makes sense actually that's in the best light .
Speaker 1I'd buy that , fred you sold me All right , I'm a pretty good salesman . I'm a pretty good salesman . You , silver-tongued devil , the lodge itself must determine whether the petitioner is thus afflicted and comes under this classification . So , like you said , you did the right thing .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1You kicked it up to Grand Lodge . Grand Lodge came back and said yeah , man , do it , rock and roll it , all right . So fullness of years alone does not bar any man from our fraternity . We simply require that he be mentally alert and mentally healthy . The effect of time on the mental process should be the subject of any investigation made on the petitioner of advanced age . So when they go out and do the investigation , if a person is of advanced age , they should take that into consideration during their . This is really technical .
Speaker 1Here we're getting technical Before we were a little more bending towards the esoteric , if that's the right word to use there , but here we are definitely going more technical right , yeah , which is good .
Speaker 2Old age is these days directly correlated with Freemasonry . For most people , when they hear you're a Freemason , they assume you're an old man . It is , it's true . It's an odd thing to walk into a room of young guys and to an outsider They'd be like whoa that's not what I was expecting . In their mind , they picture a bunch of old guys .
Speaker 1Oh , they do . Because , as you know , I joined MotorCore Shriners MotorCore so I decided to take my Harley down to my guy . I got a guy your guy , my guy who did all kinds of really cool upgrades on my engine for me at a price and he's setting my bike up perfectly to do the kind of work that I want to do in MotorCore , which is trick riding and all the different types of parade riding and routes and stuff that we do , courses and all that . And when I first told him I said yeah , motorcore , he said MotorCore isn't that Shriners ? He knew . And he you know what he said to me . He said aren't you a little young for the Shriners ? There you go , I'm 60 . And this is , I'm telling you , this is what people think , I know , I'm telling you .
Speaker 2And it's . I think it's interesting because as we age I've observed that people are affected differently and I don't know if it's the life they lived or it's their genetic disposition , but some people get really jaded and grumpy and hating everybody and hating life . And you see other guys that I think soften as they age and become so much more compassionate and Right , quiet thinking kind of people . So I never really thought too hard about that doadage piece when I was doing at home investigations a lot .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2But it makes sense . I mean , really you shouldn't let any crazy person in , right , and I guess they get into that probably more . There are other words than just doadage that we need to look at .
Speaker 1There are this is all they say about doadage those two paragraphs are it ? And , honestly , the two paragraphs . I think what it comes down to and I highlighted this one is we simply require that he be mentally alert and mentally healthy . So , at the bottom line , are they mentally alert and healthy ? That's really what this whole doadage thing is all about . I like it . The next one , masonically a fool is a mature man without good common sense . Legally he is of age . Mentally he is retarded .
Speaker 1The fool never has much mental power . And the thing about the word fool is that the book of Solomon , or the book of Proverbs , which was written by Solomon , has a lot to say about the fool . Really , oh yeah , there is proverb after proverb after proverb about the fool and his ways and how one should avoid being said fool .
Speaker 2That's a tough one to look out for .
Speaker 1It's pretty harsh too . Yeah , it's pretty harsh .
Speaker 2No , no , that guy was mentally retarded in a fool . I do not recommend he's like wow , Body blow , body blow Okay okay , I've never heard anyone disqualify someone for that purpose .
Speaker 1A fool is a mature man without good common sense . Legally he is of age . Mentally he is retarded . The fool never has much mental power . So this Mentor's Manual thinks very , very lowly of said fool , that's harsh it's fair , it's fair , it's fair .
Speaker 2I think we should try to keep fools out of the fraternity .
Speaker 1All right , what's a fool ?
Speaker 2I think what you just explained . A fool is somebody who's a mature man , meaning he's left his young adulthood and he's now a mature man . In my age , that means you're probably in your 30s at least , but I'm an old man , so I'll take that for what it is .
Speaker 1Oh man .
Speaker 2But you don't have the capacity to make good decisions . So you could probably tell from somebody's surroundings If you went to their home and you see that they are on the verge of homelessness . They're not taking care of things . You know , if you're a 24 year old with nine kids and you don't have a job , okay , we're like what's going on in your head ? How did you get to this point ? What are you doing about it ? And if the answers aren't satisfactorily given to you , you might have to assume that person's a fool .
Speaker 1Correct is
Foolishness and Libertinism in Masonic Thinking
Speaker 1okay . So if you do something foolish , does that make you a fool ?
Speaker 2In the moment maybe I agree .
Speaker 1In the moment , I think anyone can choose to stop being a fool at any time . And if you look in the book of Proverbs , the book that Solomon wrote , you can see that the fool is able to . The fool can turn , should he so gain . Said knowledge and wisdom , he can turn from his foolish ways . I know here . Let me give you an example of a foolish thing Are you gonna do ? It now I know yeah , yeah , you do something foolish . No , no , I've done enough of that for both of us , believe me .
Speaker 2Like a Scottish accent for the rest of the show . I know , no , never , never , do that .
Speaker 1See , it makes Scottish people very angry .
Speaker 2First of all .
Speaker 1So I know a man when he was young , married to his first wife in Riverside California , who was having lots and lots of trouble in his young marriage prior to children being born , and he thought it'd be a really good idea to save his marriage . He thought it'd be a good idea to have children . That , my friend , is foolishness . To believe in your mind that you're struggling in your new marriage . So instead of doing the hard work of humbling oneself and working through marital young marital issues , throw a screaming baby with a loaded diaper in the mix . That's foolish thinking . That's foolish thinking , man . You're not stopping and let's unwind it a little bit more . That young man , whoever he may be , that young man was not in a position to look at himself and say you know what ? This marriage is in trouble , maybe because of my behaviors . I don't need to add something to this . I need to look in my own life right and stop making foolish decisions and do the right thing . Now that young man went on to have three beautiful children .
Speaker 2Yes , I mean , there's good things , and they are awesome and just talked to one the other day .
Speaker 1Oops , I didn't say that .
Speaker 2Foolish things can have positive outcomes . Foolish things can have positive outcomes , because who knows what's good or bad All ?
Speaker 1right . So back to my point . So if your foolishness can be a temporary thing , one can turn from his foolishness . So how do we , as an investigating body , see the fool legally of age ? Mentally he is retarded . The fool never has much mental power . Okay , so if he's being foolish , what ? At the time , at the time of the investigation , he's in his right mind , he's doing everything seemingly right . His people like him and all that stuff .
Speaker 1He comes in and then , two years later , everyone starts scratching and thinking man , this dude's a fool . What did we do here ? So the point , the itch I'm trying to scratch here , is digging in deep to the concept of the fool .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think that we say we make good men better .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So we don't want the fool who's in full fool head .
Speaker 1Yeah , there you go .
Speaker 2Because I have five kids and multiple grandchildren now . That was in a very similar situation to the one you described and made the same decisions . I tried to join the fraternity in my 20s and wasn't able to .
Speaker 1Oh , they thought you were a fool .
Speaker 2I was a fool . That's why they . I don't think there were other problems .
Speaker 1You mean so it works , it works . I mean heck , yeah , I wasn't .
Speaker 2Other people at that age might be ready , but I wasn't . I had the desire , but I wasn't where I'm at now .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2I would not have been as useful to the fraternity if I was of any use at that age .
Speaker 1This is a great lesson . This is a great lesson right here Because it works so . Originally you decided you wanted to be a Mason .
Speaker 2I did .
Speaker 1And they looked at your life and background and said no man you are , you're a fool . You're a fool , man , you are a fool .
Speaker 2I never made a petition to a lodge . Okay , okay , I talked to Free Mason , who I was trying to get to recommend me on a petition and he shut me down , okay . Because he was a good enough , mason , to know that I wasn't ready . You weren't ready . Imagine that a Mason you got a young guy coming to you wanting to join .
Speaker 1You're like not right now , not right now . Come back to 20 years and you can be worshipful master .
Speaker 2I mean , we should all have the fortitude to do that kind of a thing .
Speaker 1That is . I mean that right there , my brother , is one of the reasons we do the show , the way we do it is right there . That is a practical application of exactly what we're talking about here . So , the investigative committee if you're on an investigative committee , don't be afraid , it's not a rubber stamp committee .
Speaker 2It's supposed to be .
Speaker 1It's not a rubber stamp . Committee Look at the life .
Speaker 2Yeah , look at the family , look at the dead animals , stepping on some toes today .
Speaker 1Should we go to the last one , the last one ? Well , it's not a second to last one Should we go to that one right now , or should we continue on the fool thing ?
Speaker 2No , no , we're done with foolish . Okay , we're done with foolish , let's move on . No more fool . I couldn't coax him in doing anything foolish , so I'm done with this .
Speaker 1Stay tuned , folks .
Speaker 2It'll happen .
Speaker 1Libertine , libertine . Wow , this has got something to do with politics right Masonically refers to a free thinker , nonconformist one , who subscribes to no higher authority in his thinking . It does not denote what is meant by the word in modern days a man who is promiscuously promiscuous sexually . So a libertine used to mean somebody , a man , who was promiscuous sexually . So that's a libertine . So you know , because back in the day .
Speaker 2That has nothing to do with us .
Speaker 1Well , you know the words they used for women were a lot worse than the words they used for men . You ever notice that that guy sleeps around ? He's a libertine . That girl sleeps around she's a whore .
Speaker 2It's not quite fair , is it ? It's ? Not quite fair yeah , libertine's not bad . I mean , I'd be like , yes , I am a libertine , I am a libertine of libertine , I am the libertine of libertine .
Speaker 1But mentally I mean sorry , libertine Masonically refers to a free thinker , nonconformist one who subscribes to no higher authority in his thinking . That's the problem there .
Speaker 2That's the problem there .
Speaker 1He is the ultimate authority in his own mind about all things Masonic .
Speaker 2About all things probably .
Speaker 1All things , yeah , but I'm throwing that in there Because free thinking .
Speaker 2Why would we not want a free thinker ? We do want free thinkers .
Speaker 1Nonconformist . Wait , wait , bring it . Those two words are joined together here Free thinking , nonconformist . He's a free thinking nonconformist . So , in other words , when it comes to Masonic law , when it comes to behavior within the lodge , when it comes to he's not gonna follow . He's a free thinker , so he's got a better idea . He's got a better plan .
Speaker 2It's okay to have better ideas and plans , as long as you stick to the rules , yeah well try that when you're working , when you're doing floor work .
Speaker 1No , I don't think this works the way .
Speaker 2let's try it this way . Think in however you want , as long as you do it the way you're supposed to do it .
Speaker 1There you go that would not work for a free thinking . That's the nonconformist part .
Speaker 2Yeah , the nonconformist part I get .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think it , and it's probably speaks more of an overall attitude towards life , right , where people who shirk authority in a joking way , but you can tell they really mean it . You know , like I was in the lodge , somebody had been asked to do something by somebody who used to be a person of authority but is no longer , and I could see that they were offended Like who are you ? You can't you know ? That's kind of that . Non , that's kind of that attitude . Maybe that you know . The attitude should be that no matter who comes to you in lodging says , hey , man , can you do this , can you do that ? You should be . Yeah , man , I can do it If you can , if you're in a position to do it .
Speaker 1Yeah , of course , brother , I'll do it . Yeah , I'll help , whatever I gotta do . Instead , it's like this hesitation , you know , because his reputation was a bit marred because of , you know , his time , and this brother was just like , eh , maybe , yeah , it was like no , no , no , that's kind of non . I don't know if that's non-conformist free thinking , non-conformist . I don't know if that goes to libertine as defined here , but it certainly goes to that lack of conformity to the precepts of Masonic behavior .
Speaker 2Right , and we can't have that , we can't have it . No , I completely agree with that .
Speaker 1But I'm sitting here talking , and I'm talking myself right out of it . I don't think that explains what libertine is meant by the manual , though do you ?
Speaker 2Well , it tells you what it means there non-conformist free thinking non-conformist Free thinking non-conformist . But that last part is the most important .
Speaker 1one Doesn't see any other authority other than his own One who subscribes to no higher authority in his thinking .
Speaker 2That's a big problem .
Speaker 1That's a big problem . I think that's really the best thing that we can get out of this right here .
Speaker 2You can't have that kind of person in the military right .
Speaker 1There's a chain of command .
Speaker 2You might think the command is dumb . You may hate it because it might end your life to follow the command , but you need people that are gonna follow orders .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's right , that's right , and it's not that extreme in Freemasonry , but there is a hierarchy , there is a chain of command and in my opinion , we want free thinkers , we want people that think differently and voice their concerns and talk about their issues with things and vigorously argue to defend their thinking , but when the decision comes down , that's when it's time to be a good Mason and do what you're supposed to do .
Speaker 2Even if it isn't what you wanna do , and I've been preaching that in anybody that I'm in the line with for the last five years . Talk about it , argue it , definitely . But when that decision comes down , you need to just get on board and shut your mouth until a more appropriate time comes up when you can revisit it . Until then , you need to be a vessel of your station and execute as you're supposed to . So yeah , if you can't see authority , you got no business being an Mason .
Speaker 1Yeah , no , that's right . So I think , when it comes to the word libertine , I guess for me I'm looking at a person who , in their own mind , the ultimate authority that they subscribe to is their own thinking within their own mind , so they think it . Therefore , I'm at a deficit for not walking in lockstep with their own thinking .
Speaker 2Whether it's good or bad , I don't know , that's a tough one to call it's really tough , yeah , when you see it , because you don't know if it's a personality thing between you and the person . You don't know if it's a topical thing of what you're talking about . Hard to determine that that's just the kind of person he is , without really knowing them very well .
Identifying Drama, Masonic Culture
Speaker 1I think there are people that there's always some kind of drama going on with them . So it is . I feel like that's me . But negative drama , let's talk about it , yeah you got a lot of drama , but it's all positive . It's like yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Ladies and gentlemen , Do so late yes .
Speaker 1But there's always people . I am not speaking of anyone in specifically . Please don't infer that . By what ?
Speaker 2I'm saying right here , just like I did .
Speaker 1He's talking about you , but we all know people where there's just this cloud of constant negative drama around them and it just everything pops up every once in a while . It's like gosh man , you know . It's like there's always something that to me , is going to be the libertine , somebody I can identify that's either the fool or the libertine , or it's somebody who needs some help . You know , I'm not looking to kick them out , I'm not looking to harm them or defame them or hurt them .
Speaker 2But they don't need to be messing with our freemason stuff here .
Speaker 1Well , that's right .
Speaker 2That is going to cause disharmony .
Speaker 1And I think that's the bottom line here . I guess that's why we are taking the time to identify these things and why the manual probably takes time to identify them is because , at the end of the day , this kind of behavior and people who practice this kind of stuff are going to bring disharmony to the lodge , and that can't be .
Speaker 2We can't have that Nope , and that's something that every petition committee and investigating committee member needs to keep in mind when they're vetting people . Is this person going to be able to get on board ? Is he going to be a problem for the lodge ? Maybe he just wouldn't fit into your lodge , but he would fit better into the culture of another lodge and be less problematic there . Those are the kind of things we need to consider and say you know what ? You should check this out too . I know a guy over there call him set up a meeting . We don't have to just say no you know , because in some cases it might make sense to .
Speaker 2I've seen cases like that and we've gotten brothers like that because they've been at other lodges and you know we have a lodge close to us . We're like I'm talking a mile . A mile A mile for a month , and so people get confused . Why are there two lodges and we tell them check them both out .
Speaker 2You got to go , and see the vibes , because ours traditionally has been more about the education and a little more stuffy and a little you know , a little more about the history and the other lodge close to us traditionally has been more about community service and doing fun things with family . And so that's two very different cultures , and some guys that might have young kids and want to be out in the community would do have a better time .
Speaker 1Yeah shout out to Phoenix Lodge , by the way .
Speaker 2At Phoenix Lodge . And I say historically , because things are always changing , right , I'm not saying that's who it is who we are today . We're trying to change , for sure , and I'm sure they are too .
Speaker 1Oh , absolutely Absolutely . Yeah , those guys . They're great guys over there , man .
Speaker 2We've gotten people because we're an older lodge and we have more history , and that's what their vibe is . They like the history and so that's why they came to us . So the culture does have an impact on somebody's ability to be harmonious with the group .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right . Okay , you want to do the last one in this little list the profane , profane , masonically . Profane means not a Mason , yeah , it comes from the Latin pro , meaning before , and fanium , meaning a temple , masonically . A profane is one outside of the temple , slash , uninitiated . So anybody that's good to know , who is uninitiated is known as profane . Yeah , so obviously the word profane did not quite have the same meaning as it does today , right , right ? So when I we all know it from profanity , from profanity , right , which is a very bad thing , and that , and it says right here , it says the word has no reference to profanity in the modern sense of taking the name of God in vain , because originally that's what profanity meant when you take the name of the Lord in vain , that was known as profanity , now it's known as any type of slur blue letter yeah , blue streak words , you know is known as profanity , but anyway .
Speaker 1so the profane is anybody who is uninitiated . Wow .
Speaker 2Yeah , yep , and that's how I've always heard it referenced Masonically , so that makes sense
The Role of Women in Freemasonry
Speaker 2, all right .
Speaker 1Do we want to just jump to the next one ? What do we skip it Nothing . The next one is 5.9 . Are you sure ? Yeah , I wrote in big letters over it . Skip it , but I guess you want to go into it .
Speaker 2So 5.9 is . Is this women ?
Speaker 1It just says one word woman .
Speaker 2Oh , I definitely want to get into this one , All right . No nothing big , but you want me to read it first . Yeah , please , please , all right , I'll read it first .
Speaker 1All right , so 5.9 in the Masonic Mentors Manual on Women . The question as to our refusal to allow women to become masons has arisen many times in the history of the craft . Yeah , thank . Speculative free masonry springs from the operative art and applies to the tools and implements of the craft to moral and intellectual purposes . In the construction of the massive structures built by our operative brethren , only hardy men were employed . In due time this became one of the landmarks written as a requirement that only men could be initiated as free masons . The landmark is effective today and will probably continue to be into the future . Taking so yeah , so there's not a lot there .
Speaker 2Well , they're talking about an operative masonry . Why there wasn't women , right ? Because it's hard work . Well , I , you're lifting heavy stuff , can I ?
Speaker 1May I venture that perhaps they're just kind of kind of giving a pass on this one a little bit there .
Speaker 2A little bit , A little bit , yes , A little . Pass on that one . Maybe they're like oh yeah , lifting heavy rocks is good for women .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know it was the operative guys you know they needed some beef cakes out there .
Speaker 2And well , we just kind of went with it . So sorry .
Speaker 1Move on 5.2 .
Speaker 2Moving on . It may very well be the case that that was a rule for operative masons . It absolutely was , and then it was carried over to our spec . It may be the case .
Speaker 1Let's keep in mind , in that time and era of time , women did not do hard labor . Right , it was . It just wasn't done .
Speaker 2Much clearer definitions of the rules .
Speaker 1Absolutely , absolutely . So . That's definitely a sign of the times , and what they're saying here is they're just simply saying that that landmark of it being a fraternity just comes out of our tradition . It's just part of our tradition and it's been brought into the future . Weak sauce that's what I call it . Weak sauce yeah , that's pretty weak . It's weak , yeah .
Speaker 2So here's what I tell people , because my wife had issue with this when I was going to join . She didn't care about the stuff she had heard , right , the satanic stuff , because she's like I know , chris , he's not going to turn into a devil worshiper , right , but she was like it's in this day and age . She was so offended that women are excluded from something , and so I was actively looking for a good reason when I joined Freemasonry that I could bring home , and I found it real quick . And so now this is what I tell people , because this is why I think it's a thing we don't allow religion and politics to be discussed in Lodge .
Speaker 1Why Because it oh , I know where you're going with this Because it brings disharmony . It's defa'isif Right .
Speaker 2There's nothing good that's going to come out of that and people are going to get set in their ways and change . And I think sports and women should be included , excluded for the same reason , women a woman coming into the situation with men changes the way that we act and think and behave Absolutely .
Speaker 1Absolutely . We are not as open .
Speaker 2We are not as true to ourselves . We are a boat up . We're trying to project something you can't control . That Okay , it's a natural reflux . How dare you ?
Speaker 1Of an animal in the world . You can't help yourself I mean you can .
Speaker 2Okay , you can , but it's hard work and I think it goes in line with removing the obstacles . That gets to us exploring how to become better people , because if we can't be totally honest and trust each other as men in a room together , how are we going to get there ? And a woman coming into that situation will definitely change that dynamic and a negative way for men that are trying to be open and share themselves to the fullest and the most truest , rawest way that they can , which is how we should be approaching Freemasonry .
Speaker 1I totally agree and it's so true . That's why when you go to the gym , the gym is such a dysfunctional you know those $9 a month gyms that you go to and stuff Because there's men and women in there working out together and you could just feel the utter dysfunction in the air man .
Speaker 1It's just nobody is being themselves on any level , and it's because there's a little bit of competition in there . There's really good looking women in there , scantily dressed . There's all these guys in there , you know chestin' up and stuff , and it's just a bad mix . But , if you went to a gym where it's just all guys working out , I can tell you right now there'd be a lot of chestin' up , there'd be a lot of smack talk , but it would be completely different it would be so completely different .
Speaker 1The first thing the work would be getting done . Men focus on work . So when we're there to do work , we do work . When it's just us , you throw a woman in the mix and the work is out the window . It's no longer about the work , it's about this other thing . So I completely agree with you . Was that the motivation ? Behind the grand lodges and the lodges in not bringing women in . I'd like to think so .
Speaker 1Right ? Well , and that's what I was gonna say is that for me , when you introduce women into the mix , it's not necessarily a sexual problem in any way ? I mean , of course our minds go to that because we're visual . God made us to see that form for a reason . We would die off as a species if they didn't look that way , guys , because we're lazy .
Speaker 2When my wife comes to the lodge , she's like I just had 40 old men staring at my boobs for like an hour .
Speaker 1But the other part of it is for me . I'm very keen on protecting . I'm very protective of women . I don't want them to feel embarrassed , I don't want them to be . I want to make sure that they're cared for , and I think that's in bread in us , sure , and I have two daughters . So for me , I am always trying to protect and make sure the woman in the room is comfortable , happy . Some women are offended by this , believe it or not , but I am always Nothing surprises me these days .
Speaker 1It's always me that I'm gonna protect her . If somebody's offending her , you're gonna get the full Fred right up in your face .
Speaker 2That's all part of it and again it's gonna mess with the harmony .
Speaker 1It could potentially have a huge opportunity to mess with the harmony .
Speaker 2So , I would like to believe . That's why it's just too much of an obstacle to us reaching our objectives .
Speaker 1And the other thing is that it's a fraternity .
Speaker 1Not a sorority , it's a fraternity . Women have sororities which men are not permitted to be a part of , and men have fraternities which women are not permitted to be a part of , and I think that's fair . I don't think we need to . Once women are accepted into the fraternity guess what ? It's no longer a fraternity by definition . You've turned it into Well , it's a social club , social club , social club or whatever other , and there's nothing wrong with those places . And we have appended bodies that are mixed , which are very , very effective in the community . So , alright , we've beaten that one to death , I think .
Speaker 2Women .
Speaker 1Women . Can't live with them , can't live without them . I shouldn't have said that Number 5.10 is signed tokens and words . This is a real good one . It's one of the parts of our rituals that I love . I really love the signs of these are the secret parts of the ritual , the secret parts of the ritual .
Speaker 1That's right , and I think this is worded very well . Somebody took a little bit of time to do this . Now this points to Now remember this is the Mentor's Manual , so this is helping us speak to another brother about the things of Masonry , who may or may not know them yet . So that's kind of We've got to keep that in mind While we're reading through this and Chris and I are commenting on it .
Speaker 1This manual is something that every Mason should be reading and understanding , in my opinion , because it really gives you insight into how to convey the tenets of Masonry to another person and it kind of keeps you on track . I know there's a lot of guys out there that want to do mentorship and it has nothing to do with this manual . I am completely in opposition to that . I think this manual is all you need to begin the mentoring process in the life of another brother . I don't know where I got that from Signs , tokens and words .
Speaker 1We attach considerable importance to the signs , tokens and words in free Masonry because they are an essential part of our mods of recognition . By the use of these , one may prove himself to be a Mason and be able to recognize others as such . I'll put a little asterisk there . While these in themselves are insufficient proof of membership , they constitute very important links in the chain of evidence that they are always called for by one appointed to exist , one appointed to examine a visitor . The candidate should be reminded that each sign , token and word has a symbolic meaning which should serve to enrich the mind and improve our lives as Masons .
Speaker 1The mentor should rehearse and explain all the signs , tokens and words of this degree with the new master , mason . The proper execution of all signs should be stressed and all brothers should be required to cultivate the habit of such precision and performance as would indicate his respect for the dignity of this part of the ceremony . The proper execution of the signs will also give testimony to his brethren that he understands the signs and respects the ceremonies . That last part , it kind of hits home for me because I personally don't have the signs , tokens and words down like I think I should .
Speaker 2So at our last stage meeting we literally did education on the signs .
Speaker 1I know , I remember that .
Speaker 2I'm .
Speaker 1Tyler , so I got to see half of it . I'm sorry about that .
Speaker 2I'm not resentful though I was informed that you were talking to somebody and I couldn't bring in what I wanted .
Speaker 1to Wait , I think we mentioned this at the last podcast . Don't listen . Yeah , okay .
Masonic Signs and Tokens
Speaker 2But what I started out by explaining is for me , because now I'm sitting in the East , I see as we ballot how people do signs off a lot and I think that it's a poor reflection on your lodge and your mentors for you to go around visiting other lodges doing the signs poorly Correct and incorrectly .
Speaker 2It shows that , one , you don't understand what the signs meant and two , if you're not willing to do that most basic thing correctly , that how seriously do you take all the rest of it in masonry , Right ? And so that's how we started our education is saying it seems silly , but this is really important , that you take a little pride and you learn what you're doing and why you're doing it , if you're going to be doing it at all . And then we covered how to do it properly . And Florida , if you're listening , has open books where you can see them and it's described and you can learn how to do them properly A lot . I mean it shouldn't be hard for you to find somebody that can help show you how to do them properly , and explain what they mean to you .
Speaker 2But you're right , this is a tradition thing , this isn't a . You're going to get access if you know how to do it , because it's on the internet , anyone can go look at how to do it and do it .
Speaker 2It doesn't prove anything but us . It's the tradition that we keep these things secret , and so it's one of the first tests as a mason that we get . If you recall , you're in an apprentice degree . Are you going to follow the rules or are you going to break your obligations ? And you committed to not tell these things . So don't , that's simple , just don't . Just . Be a good mason and don't do it . Also , do it right if you're going to do it .
Speaker 1That's another part of being a good mason .
Speaker 1That's important , take some pride in your work and that's exactly what it says right here . It just shows the respect and dignity for the ceremony and for masonry is that you've taken the time to learn them . For me it's the tokens and being able to do the tokens correctly . I'm going to master that in such a great way that wherever I go , I'm going to be doing that with masons everywhere I go .
Speaker 1Because I rode with the guys out east to one of the biker bars out there and we were hanging out and there's a dude pulls up on a really nice three-wheeler older guy and he's got emblems and symbols all over him . Man , he's clearly a mason . And as he was getting on his bike I walked over to him and I said so , you're a mason , I presume I said it just like that and he just went right into everything and we were going back and forth , back and forth . Then we both realized we were in public and we stopped . He was like whoa , hold it , hold it . But I realized at that point I really would have rather have gone up to him and offered him my hand and given him the token and gone through that with him , but I was afraid to in my mind because it wasn't exactly .
Speaker 1Oh , you didn't want to do it wrong I didn't want to do it wrong , and that's what I thought and that's why , reading this , I realized that you know what that's got to end . I'm going to take the time to perfect it . Anybody out there who's feeling the same way I'm feeling get it done , man . Get in there and figure it out , find somebody who does know it and every time you see them do it , that's what I'm going to do with my worshipful master here and partner on the podcast Every time I see him .
Speaker 1He and I are going to engage in the token of a master mason .
Speaker 2I have two things on that .
Speaker 1OK .
Speaker 2Now , this came up recently because we have a lot of new guys in our lodge and they know the tokens . Like you know the tokens , but it's hard , without thinking it's going to happen , to pop it off all of a sudden out of the blue Because you haven't done it that much .
Speaker 1You never do really Right , Really ever . We should do it more because it's really cool .
Speaker 2That's the one thing is that we just don't do it enough . So , it's hard for you to reflexively do something when you don't practice it much .
Speaker 1Totally what I was feeling out there . Totally exactly what I was feeling .
Speaker 2In hindsight you're like ah , missed opportunity .
Speaker 1I know I was bummed man . How many more ?
Speaker 2opportunities like that am I going to get this year , and in reality you might get two a year . It's like that's how rarely you employ the tokens and so it's hard to pop them off like that . That's my first thing , so if you do , the more I think it would be good , it would be good for you and good for everybody else . Yeah , the other thing is we are going to be doing , I think next week , a Rusty Mason degree .
Speaker 1Right , right .
Speaker 2So they in our district we do it once a year and I highly recommend , if your district isn't doing it , that you get with the master Mason , or they call it the Masters of Wardens Association and have them put one on . Or in our case it's the past masters unit of the shrine that puts it on In the past . This year it's going to be in conjunction . The master mace association and the past masters unit of the shrine is doing it , but a lot of brothers that haven't been to Lodge in a little while don't come back because they're afraid that they're not going to know those things and they're going to be embarrassed . It really is the reason they don't come . And so go to a Rusty Mason degree . They're going to cover the signs , the tokens and the words and all the important stuff not everything , just the important stuff . That'll make you feel comfortable . If anyone ever threw one at you , you'd know exactly how to handle it and why . So I highly recommend anybody like yourself go refresh , Go there listen to it and then you'll have it .
Speaker 2after that I go every year and that helps to be refreshed because we don't do them much . We do them in lectures and degrees .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , and be in Tyler and twice a year .
Speaker 2You'll run into somebody that'll give you a token and you're like oh Right , right , I don't know if he got what I was doing there or if I embarrassed myself .
Speaker 1Yeah , right , right . But , as Tyler , there was a couple of times when guys came in . It would have been cool to just greet them in that way , because they're probably not expecting it , so I would be able to ascertain almost immediately if they actually were or were not Master Masons , just by you know , maybe they're a little rusty but they still get the tenants of it , or maybe they're slick man and they're just like better at it than me .
Speaker 2Then I'm a little bit embarrassed , you know , and challenged to get better at it .
Speaker 1Yeah , either way it's a good thing , but I think it's a good thing , because to me I just think that kind of stuff for our fraternity has some really cool man shit in it pardon my language man .
Speaker 2And that's part of it right there , man , I dig that stuff you know , I think we can maintain a PG-13 rating if we only use one or two curse words . So you're fine , you're fine .
Speaker 1All right , unless you've bleeped it out . And then this part of the conversation is not necessary .
Speaker 2This will also be cut out . So say them all right now .
Speaker 1So signs , tokens and words . What about words , man ? What are words ?
Speaker 2The words . So the words are just another mode of recognition , really . Both us , all three of those things go together .
Speaker 2So you have a sign , a token and a word for each of the three degrees , and this is how we , as Masons , recognize each other and where we're at in our journey in Masonry and this ties into the historical operative Masons because people weren't born free when they were actually doing these guilds of Masonry , and so people that were able to travel for their craft because they had this skill that was so important and needed all throughout Europe , they were allowed to travel , and so the ability to have a proof that you had attained a certain rank in your craft would have been critically important to keep secret because that was a valuable asset , that was a valuable commodity that was traded at the time and that is a tradition that we carry on as speculative Masonry .
Speaker 2So I think we are mainly doing it out of tradition and it's one of the things that's just so silly , because people say I have secrets , these are the secrets that we're talking about . And they don't have anything to do with your religious belief .
Speaker 1For any of that stuff , none of that stuff .
Speaker 2It's 100% modes of recognition from operative Masonry that , as a tradition , we carry on in speculative Masonry . Right , right , yeah . If you wanna find it , it's on the internet . Don't do it if you're gonna join ?
Speaker 1Yeah , don't do it . Don't ruin it for yourself and don't ruin it for somebody else , man , because that's just lame . The next one's working the working tools . Do we wanna dive into that , or is that gonna be on the next ?
Speaker 2Only a fool would do that , only a fool .
Speaker 1Yeah . Well , we're an hour in and people are clamoring to us to extend the length of the podcast to an hour and a half , yeah , so . I don't know . I don't know Anybody ask my wife . She won't listen to me for an hour and a half . I don't know why you guys will but hey , people are asking for continued conversation more than an hour .
Masonic Degrees and Working Tools
Speaker 2Let's get through the first half of the Master Mason degree with this episode .
Speaker 1Whoa , so that next time we can start digging into the second half the fun juicy part of this degree . All right , the working tools of a Master Mason .
Speaker 1The working tools of a Master Mason are all of the implements of masonry . In the United States , the trial is especially assigned to this degree . By it , the Master Mason is reminded that each must cement the ties between masons with this instrument and spread brotherly love with it . When we examine the instrument , we will agree that it might more properly belong to the fellow craft who , in operative masonry , puts the stones into place , rather than the designer and overseer who would correspond to our Master Masons . Our English and Scottish brethren assign instruments to the Master Mason which are not enumerated in our own rituals . In these grand lodges , the working tools of a Master Mason are the scurret , pencil and compasses .
Speaker 1The scurret is an instrument working on a center pin and used by operative masons to mark out on the ground the foundation of the intended structure . The pencil is used in drawing plans and designs . The compasses are used to determine the limits and proportions of the several parts of the structure . The scurret points to the straight and undividing line of conduct laid down for our guidance in the Holy Bible . The pencil teaches that all of our words and actions are not only observed by record , but are not only observed but recorded by God , and the compasses remind us of his unerring and impartial justice which , having defined for us the limits of good and evil , will either reward or punish us as we deserve .
Speaker 2Wow , wow you know I had not gotten that far .
Speaker 1So that's the first read for me , heavy and that's pretty heavy and that's pretty heavy . I wanna go back to paragraph one and read it , because that second paragraph does in fact deal with English and Scottish masonry , which is very different , on a lot of tenants , than ours , but I do like the way it reads . I mean , with the scurret , the scurret , pencil and compass , I get it and I like it , but it's , it's not part of our tradition .
Speaker 2It's not part of ours .
Speaker 1So let me read that first paragraph again . The working tools of a master mason are all of the implements of masonry . In the United States , the trial is especially assigned to this degree . By it the master mason is reminded that each must cement the ties between masons with this instrument and spread brotherly love with it . When we examine the instrument , we will agree that it might more properly belong to the fellow craft who , in operative masonry , puts the stones into place , rather than the designer and overseer who would correspond to our master mason .
Speaker 1So , yeah , the trowel is . Well , you gotta wait . I think I know where you're going . You gotta back up . You gotta say it's the working tools of a master mason , are all the tools , working tools of masonry , taught to you up to this point , with a special attention to the trowel Right , and I've got a couple of notes here that I've made over the years concerning that .
Speaker 2Oh , very interesting . So I think there could also be a situation where there were only two degrees at one point and it got split out and they had to have separate tools for each of the three degrees . So it could be just a slight oversight by the person who did the writing of the degree that was added . Because , yes , I would agree with what they say . It definitely fits in more with the fellow craft than the master mason .
Speaker 1Yeah , I would agree with that too . I think I talked about this in the EA degree . I wrote down just for me , just some things that I that I gleaned from the tools In the EA degree . It's a 24 inch gauge in the common gavel , then in the fellow craft it's the plumb , the square and the level and then the trowel . Looking back at all the tools , working tools of a master mason , especially the trowel , and so for me it was the 24 inch gauge represents my time in my life . The common gavel represents a willingness to learn . It's not doing the work , it's a willingness to do the work , because if you came onto my job site and I handed you a hammer , you wouldn't know how to use it .
Speaker 1But , you would be willing to learn how to use it . So that's what that represents to me . The plumb is the standard I set , the square is the standard I set applied . And then the level is the path we walk on together as brethren . We meet on the level .
Speaker 2It's the name of our show , for goodness sakes .
Speaker 1And then the trial for me , the trial represents doing all of the work so , as a master mason , spreading the cement of love and brotherly affection encompasses all of the things that I've learned thus far into the building of our temple , the building of our lodge , our temple , our brothers , our families , our work , everything .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1That's the way that I see it and I just think it's . The only reason I wanted to go back to that was for my own selfish reasons , because I just always have to remind myself of this cool stuff , but also just to get to that place where I'm remembering again that the trial is the sign . Typically when you see symbols and emblems of master masons , the trial is always there and that trial is . I'm so close to getting a trial tattoo .
Speaker 1Oh , really yes because I just think it reminds us of everything we need to be reminded of right See the cement of brotherly love and affection is spread in the lives , by me , in my life , towards all of my brothers and including and also mankind .
Speaker 2Hopefully , hopefully , yeah , and that's the point .
Speaker 1Remember , we've been . We were an apprentice , we were an apprentice and then , after apprenticing and learning that part of the trade now , we were given the opportunity to apply it in the building of the temple and then we got so good at it that we are now given the honor of doing design work and management work and managing those craftsmen below us to build this temple . You know it's , yeah it's , it's no small thing , man , it's a big deal .
Speaker 2This is just another instance of this degree hammering home harmony and its importance to us as a fraternity and as a society , because that tool at its highest level , as it stated here , is about spreading brotherly love and that is harmony . So disagreements healthy good , but you need to walk away , brothers .
Speaker 1Yeah , love each other yeah .
Speaker 2And you know the debates about how something should be done good and healthy but at the end , when a decision is made , you walk away and execute the agreed upon plan together , as brothers . Right Harmony is . It's important , it's incredibly important to any society , but for us especially , because we're here to help each other , lift each other up , and divisiveness has no part in that . If you are somebody that finds yourself constantly at odds with your brothers , think about the trial more .
Speaker 1Yeah , think about that .
Speaker 2This is what you were called to do when you became a master mason is change your behavior and start to think about how you can get along better with your brothers . That doesn't mean like you stop thinking for yourself . It just means you try to change your tactics . Maybe it's a little political thing for you . You need to sometimes let somebody else win , If you're the guy that has to always win . But I think at its highest level it's about harmony , which is a theme that you keep we keep talking about in this degree .
Speaker 1That's right .
Speaker 2All these things keep saying harmony , harmony , harmony . The tool itself is saying harmony . You think it's important ?
Speaker 1I think they're trying to tell us something Because at the end of the day , nothing can get done that's of any real value or that's really worth doing if it's done with strife and envy and trouble along the way . I know there are lodges out there who experienced that . There's probably some brothers out there right now who are saying this is breaking my heart , because my lodge is full of strife and envy and trouble .
Speaker 2A lot of stuff doesn't get done in lodges because of people's egos .
Speaker 1It's so true .
Speaker 2It's absolutely true . I'm so jealousy . I've seen it . I'm not trying to poo-poo on the fraternity at all . What I'm trying to do is poo-poo on people that aren't acting like masons and being better stewards of their place in the fraternity . If it's you , if you're listening to this , I hope you start to think about how you can change even a little , because it's a problem in Freemasonry that we have to deal with .
Speaker 2You have to kill your ego . You're part of something bigger than yourself . That's why you joined . You wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself , and now you are . That means you don't always get your way . It's not always going to be , even if you're right . That means you didn't do a good enough job explaining yourself or making other people understand . You have to be able to work together towards the common good of the whole . In our lodges , oftentimes I have seen people intentionally try to kill things because either it's not their idea , or it's not the way they imagine their idea being realized , or the worst one , they don't want to see somebody else get a win the worst one they just want somebody else not to win .
Speaker 2Those things are all going against everything that this Master of Masonry degree is trying to teach us . You're hurting all of us . If that's how you're acting in your lodge , you're definitely hurting your brothers . You're definitely hurting the future of your lodge by not being able to let your own ego get out of the way . It's tough because it's very tough , because most of us aren't getting paid to do this .
Speaker 1I say that because some secretaries and treasurers are .
Speaker 2We're not Most of us . We do this out of love and passion . You're bringing so much love and passion to this thing . Of course , it's going to be difficult to subdue those things when it doesn't go your way . That's what we're called to do . This is what it means to be a better man . It's so true , it's learned to change your ways and your natural instincts .
Speaker 1It is not our nature to overlook an offense . It is totally not our nature . You're never closer to God when you choose to overlook an offense , because he overlooked a great offense . Now I'm , of course , dabbling into my own tradition there . It's just true when we overlook , Are we not recording ?
Speaker 2For how long ? Okay ?
Speaker 1There we go . I don't know what happened there . When you overlook an offense , the first thing you do is you overlook it with what I call with your hands , or with your words and your hands . It's a learned response . You're over . It's okay , man , it's all right . I forgive you , I'm not offended , I ain't mad at nobody .
Speaker 1Whatever you got to say to get that done , you may not feel it in your heart right away , on your hands , in your body language and in your words . You have overlooked an offense . Then you can begin the work in your heart to overlook that offense , to forgive that offense . But the one thing you don't want to do is react in such a way where you have to now unravel this path of unforgiveness . It's a split second decision .
Speaker 1Almost always , when offense occurs , you have to have a heart and mind and attitude toward forgiveness . In other words , if you're practicing a heart of brotherly love and affection , if you are seeking to be at peace with all men all the time , if it's in your heart and mind to do it and you're practicing it , when those offenses come at you , when you see and hear things , you will react accordingly . But if you're never thinking about these things , if you're never delving into the act of forgiveness , brotherly love and the concepts and precepts of masonry , and whatever your faith tradition might be as well , then you're going to be subject to these moments in time where an offense comes along and the first reaction out of your mouth or your hands is to be offended and to let that fly , to let it out . You've let it out Once . You let it out . Now you have to go back and make corrections . You've got to humble yourself .
Speaker 1You've got to ask for forgiveness and make things right . The practice of forgiveness , mercy of brotherly love and affection and humility are all part of this entire process here , and it's not easy . Like I said , overlooking an offense is not our nature . It is not the way we are . We have to work at that . What we don't have to work at is retaliation and be in anger .
Speaker 2We don't have to work at that .
Speaker 1That comes completely natural .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . And all the movies are telling us that's what's cool , right .
Speaker 1Kill everybody that offended you or you know . Kill them all . The vengeance , right , yeah , and we're all in the movie theater going .
Speaker 2Yeah , kill them all , because that's who we are as a people . Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , and free masonry teaches quite the opposite , and the working tools of the three degrees helps us to understand that . And when we get to the end of it , we should proudly hold that trial in hand and scoop up the cement of brotherly love and affection and liberally and skillfully apply it to the blocks , bricks and columns of this great temple that we're building . Yeah .
Speaker 2Yes , and my advice if you're in a lodge where you're experiencing people that are putting their own egos or their own interests above the good of the lodge , they're not exercising their use of the trial . Clearly you are not only within your rights . You're called to go to that brother at a time where it's away from everything else and quiet and whisper in his ear . This is what I saw , brother . I just want you to know I think it wasn't correct and I'm not telling you what to do , but I've been told to do this as a mason that I think that you could maybe handle that differently in the future .
Speaker 2Whisper some wise counsel in his ear privately , where you won't embarrass him and he can actually receive what you have to say without his obvious natural instincts taking over .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , and that's with gentleness and respect , yeah , and you can't just leave it and then hold that sacred trust .
Speaker 2Leave it after the conversation . Leave it After the conversation . Don't change your opinion of the person . Don't expect anything different from him , but do your job . If you see somebody airing whisper in his ear , help him out .
Speaker 1And I was just thinking about I don't know if this is the opposite side of it is if going to a brother that you feel has offended you and maybe he didn't realize it said something or did something that offended you , instead of holding it in and then having all of these passive , aggressive behaviors pop out every once in a while , going to them in private and saying , well , this is really hard for me to do , I don't know why . I'd rather just blow it off , which is not healthy . But going to a brother and saying , brother , what you did the other day , I just need you to know that I don't think it was right , I think that was wrong and I was offended by that . I want you to know I forgive you , I'm not angry at you , but I need you to know that what you did wasn't right .
Speaker 2Yeah , or at least this is how I felt about what you did , exactly yeah , for some time and got over it , or ?
Speaker 1whatever , and I think that if the brother receives that , you've won your brother and he became You're helping him be better . Well also , I think you've bonded as brothers together even closer .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Because it's that kind of stuff that brings us together . Is when we talk that way and work that way together that you cared enough .
Speaker 2Cared enough that you cared enough to even do this . Yeah , it's going to speak volumes , hopefully , to the person .
Speaker 1Right and I , as the offended party , am no longer offended because I got up the courage and that's what it takes . It takes courage to go to the brother and speak these words . And he had the humility and grace to receive them and together we walked away better masons , better men , better whatever it is in your life . So I'm convinced I'm definitely getting the Trial tattoo I've designed it Just right now Well . I've been thinking about it for a long time .
Speaker 2I've been trying to figure out which I'll put a poll on Facebook of what part of his body we're going to put this tattoo on . We'll leave it up to the listeners . Sorry , guys .
Speaker 1It's going to be the lower left calf behind my calf Lower left , I get to choose where my tattoo is going Dang it , sorry yeah . Yeah , like I told my kids Playing along , I did children .
Speaker 2When you're 48 years old , you're your first one .
Speaker 1That's what I told them .
Speaker 2My age . I'm 49 . I'm thinking what am I ? What's the point of getting a tattoo now ? I'm not even going to take my shirt off in public ever , who's going to see it ?
Speaker 1I don't know . I don't know why I do this with you . We digress .
Speaker 2This is important . This is really important , what we're talking about .
Speaker 1It is .
Speaker 2I think getting into the line is such a great way to put all these tools to use . I agree , Because if you don't , then you're on the sidelines and you only really have the opportunity to do it at a couple of times a month . That's a stated meeting right .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2But if you're in the line , you're working on Freemasonry , depending on how active your lodge is and where you're at in the line every day , every day .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2You're going to run across people that rub you the wrong way . You're going to run across everything we just talked about . You're going to run across people that are trying to kill things because it's not their idea . You're going to run across people that are hurting other people and maybe you don't even know that they're hurting us . All of this stuff is going to happen in the lodge . The lodge is our training wheels for life . I have learned so many valuable lessons by being an officer in two lodges and lines that it has definitely had a positive impact on my life outside the lodge .
Speaker 1I totally agree , 100% . No question asked , absolutely .
Speaker 2Because those training wheels in the lodge help me learn how to do things when I go out into the world . I'm a pretty active self-improvement guy so I'm always thinking I'm down on myself too much maybe , but that's just me . If you're not in the line and you're in Freemasonry , you don't have all those opportunities . With those training wheels on , I don't think you get as much . If you can find the time in your life , please do get involved If not in the line in a committee in some fashion in Freemasonry , because the more you're involved , the more situations you're going to run into where you have more opportunity to improve yourself and become a better person , using the tools of Freemasonry to help you in these situations , which you will change yourself and you will be able to take those lessons out into the world and start to . You know , because , man , I own a company , Other people don't .
Speaker 2They have a job . It's the same thing . You're so busy , You're busy , busy , busy . You have life stuff that keeps you busy . When you go home , Maybe you have a hobby that you like to do , so you don't get a lot of time to reflect . You don't get much time to analyze things that happen . Some people are really good at that . I know I wasn't and am not . But in Freemasonry you don't have a choice . You're going to see these people . You're going to have to answer for your actions , hopefully .
Speaker 1Right Hopefully .
Speaker 2Because accountability is a big part of Freemasonry . So the one thing I'd say is get involved . The more involved you are in the lodge , the more opportunity you have to use the tools and learn from them . And two , I'm not good with confrontation and I've always avoided confrontation , and I have learned through Freemasonry that this is an expression of caring for somebody . It is To come to them and tell them something that you saw that you think they could correct .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Right , it is you showing them love . It is not you trying to hurt them , break them down or be better than them . Right ? This is what Freemasonry is telling you to do . Help them , yeah .
Speaker 1To see a brother do something that is not masonic , destructive , and to do nothing about it is indifference , and that's the opposite of love , is indifference . If I am indifferent to my child as far as what they do , as long as you don't cause me any trouble , you and I are okay . That's indifference towards your child . That child will grow up and have a lot of struggles in life , because that's the opposite of love . Love corrects . Love says that direction is the wrong direction . I love you enough to take a chance here in love and help correct you . And I hope and I'm saying this because I hope that there are brothers in my life who will do that in my life .
Speaker 1If they see me going the wrong direction , if they see me saying or doing something that maybe I had said that I was never gonna do , that's a clear sign that something's not right . It's something that I've said . I'm not gonna do this thing . I'm not gonna do this thing . Four months later , a brother comes up to me and says hey , man , you told me that you were never gonna do this thing and now I see you doing it . What's up with you ?
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1That's a brother who loves me . That's a brother who loves me and I'm gonna say , oh man , you're right , you're right . What am I doing here ? Let's talk about this . That would be an example , and I hope everyone listening here is ready to implement these principles in their lives . That kind of thing Look for opportunity , don't look for people doing stuff wrong .
Speaker 2You don't have to look too hard . You don't have to look too hard .
Speaker 1But look for brothers who you can trust . It's like I said find that realm of men that you can trust , that inner circle of men who are willing to be transparent and open with each other that you can grow with . I would call it the 10 good men . I think our goal should be to have 10 good men in our lives and their families and their whole realm , and together we can grow and become something great . That's one of the reasons why I joined Freemasonry . We've talked about that before .
Speaker 1All right , Chris , we are at an hour and a half Wow . Which makes me happy . I'm happy now . I'm not always happy , but today I am .
Speaker 2Well , we got through a lot today .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think . So . Where are we going next ? Oh , oh , next , guess who H the Hieromic .
Speaker 2The Hieromic .
Speaker 1The Hier , hieremic , the Hieromic . I knew that , and now , here I am in front of the microphone acting like a fool . The Hier , I just can't pronounce it . Say it Hieremic . The Hieromic legend is next , and then the Temple of Solomon , and then the three Grand Masters .
Speaker 2So this is really gonna get the Getting into the second section , which is really good stuff .
Speaker 1It really is .
Speaker 2This is where the morality plays come in .
Speaker 1Yep , yep , and I can't wait to talk about this stuff . Yeah , and then it goes into the symbolism of the temple Solomon the king of Israel , hierom the king of Tyre , hierom Abif , the travel of the four To travel in foreign countries . I mean it really there's so much here . I don't know why anybody's going outside of this manual , because it's really good man ?
Speaker 2Well , especially this one . Once you start reading what's in that second section .
Speaker 1It's so good . Talk about the Ruffians and what they represent . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , so all right , you know I'm gonna brag . Please do .
Speaker 2For a second , because , man , I want to . There's a guy in our district that's a legend . His name is Barry D Hart . Oh shout out right Worshpill Hart , and to me he's a legend . He is a legend he is a machine with the ritual . He told me that he once did the east for the first part , king Solomon in the second part , and gave the lecture in a Master Mason degree .
Speaker 1And that this makes sense to me .
Speaker 2If you knew the man , you'd say yeah , yeah yep , and I thought , man , I wish I could see that . And you know the thing is , it's like rarely does that happen , because you need people to learn the work and you don't want one person doing five things Right right . When you're taking jobs from other people . So rarely does that happen , but the situation arose for me where I had the ability to do the same thing . No kidding , I was like what .
Speaker 1And I went to Barry and he said do it Just do it , don't think about it , just do it baby .
Speaker 2And I said , okay , all right . So I was able to sit in the east . For the first part I did King Solomon . In the second part I did the lecture and then I did the charge . Wow , I had one at Barry Hart and I did it ?
Speaker 1Did you do the charge from memory as well ? Of course , oh man , of course . Even though you didn't have to , you chose to do it from memory anyway . When are you gonna ?
Speaker 2get that chance again .
Speaker 1You know , I'll never get that chance again .
Speaker 2It just was a circumstances of that particular degree , that particular lodge which was a mine I was helping them out and cancellation .
Speaker 1So I was like I'm gonna do it Folks , it's not bragging if you can pull it off .
Speaker 2There were mistakes , okay , nothing was flawless and nothing I've ever done has been flawless . I still keep trying , but , man , that was such a great experience for me to be able to do that , and the more you do the ritual of this degree , especially the second half , if you're gonna perform something , you have to kind of understand it .
Speaker 1And where's this ?
Speaker 2person coming from . What were they thinking when they said this ?
Speaker 1right and I think that's the big part of why it's done . We do it the way we do it because you own it . After a while you freaking are that person ? You own it , man .
Speaker 2Yeah , and there are different interpretations that you could do with these words , in this person , in this situation and particularly in that second half . And I have a unique take on the third Ruffian . There's been degrees that I was in when I first first got an opportunity to play the third Ruffian . There were like four candidates and I played that guy's role four different ways that day because I was just trying to feel out what's right , what feels right to me .
Speaker 2I love it and I settled on what felt right to me , based on my understanding of the situation and the person and what the ritual is trying to teach , and that's how I do it now . But I couldn't have got to that place without many opportunities to play the role , so I highly encourage you . Ritual isn't just for like the nerds and the Dungeons and Dragons crowd or whatever you think this is a way to teach Freemasonry to you as a master mason .
Speaker 2Yeah , you're teaching the candidate . Yes , I agree , but it's an opportunity for you to learn something . So , please take a role . Take any role they give you and whatever it is , research it , try to understand it . You'll be a better mason for it .
Speaker 2You'll be able to have conversations like you're having from a much better place if you've taken the time to really understand each of the roles and why they're doing what they're doing . And next episode we're gonna get into that and I can't wait to talk about the many different ways you can interpret that second half .
Speaker 1And particularly the roughians , and what they're supposed to teach us , and if you're listening and you're not a mason , a master mason , and you're thinking roughy in this and this and that you don't know how many idea what you're talking about , that's good . Get down to a lodge and talk to somebody and get going on your journey , man , because it's awesome .
Speaker 2It's really , really awesome man Get initiated and then come on the show so we can talk to you about it . Yeah , man , right , that would be awesome .
Speaker 1We would love that we will be starting to do interviews with folks I don't know . Can we talk about ?
Speaker 2our latest thing . We are definitely . We keep anything from anyone here .
Speaker 1We are definitely going to be doing interviews at Grand Lodge , which is officially it's called the Grand Communication . Is that correct ?
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , Grand Communication , it's in end of May-ish Rosen Plaza Hotel .
Speaker 2At the Rosen .
Speaker 1Plaza Hotel . If you're in the area . I don't know how that works , but if you're in the area , come say hi to us . We have a booth set up . We will be manning that booth and we will be doing interviews from that booth . We have a very , very honored guest . Are we allowed to say that right now or do we need confirmation ?
Speaker 2Well , we got confirmation today from most worshipful Lambert . Thank you that he is amenable to doing something if we can find the time to do it , and I know he's going to be real busy as the outgoing grandmaster .
Speaker 1But we don't need much time . We don't need much time , sir . 15 , 20 minutes is all we need .
Speaker 2That'd be great . No pressure , we're going to keep it . Well as light , as the person that we're talking to wants to keep it Right . Sure , he's said he's good with that and we've had some other people . I have a good friend who's the state chairman for Masonic Leadership Training , Bill Katzuit who today ? Confirmed he would be happy to sit down with us . He's a character you're going to love him , guarantee you're going to love him . He's going to be fun . He's from Nolence , from Nolence .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , oh , ok , yeah .
Speaker 2He's fun man and he's such a good Mason . Can't wait to talk to him and , I believe , the state chairman for public relations and publicity .
Speaker 1OK .
Speaker 2Jen Penicia .
Speaker 1I believe we have a Zoom call with him coming up here in the next couple of days as well , if I'm not mistaken .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , he's agreed to sit down with us and I'm real curious to talk to him , because I don't get much . I worry he's my boss and I don't get much chance to talk to him . There you go .
Speaker 1It's going to be a great time . We are honored beyond belief to even be in this position . These are people who are making decisions for Masonry in our state . It is an absolute lifelong dedication to get where they are . These are great men in Masonry . These are our statesmen , and it's going to be a real honor to sit down with them and ask them a few questions , get to know them a little bit , and you'll get to know them a little bit too on there . Also , on the 29th April 29th , we'll be at the Hillsborough Lodge , so we're doing a talk on Masonry now , what it ought to be a lot of fun Now what Now ?
Speaker 1what do we do ? And then there's also some great guests there . Well , I don't know if it's sold out . Somebody told me that it might be , but go online . What is the lodge ? It's Hillsborough Lodge number . I can't remember .
Speaker 2But just look up Hillsborough , masonry , hillsborough . Actually , what you want to Google is the Southeast Masonic Education Symposium .
Speaker 1There you go . Southeast Masonic Education Symposium .
Speaker 2They have a website and a Facebook page and all the information's there , yeah , yeah , and Chris's beautiful pictures on there , looking good , looking sharp in his suit .
Speaker 1I'm sorry . Looking great , some old , weird old dude next to him . I don't know if we're actually on this , but yeah we should never show our faces .
Speaker 2We should just have to come in with our voices . Somebody told me that I don't know if I said this on the ear , but somebody told me that they met Fred and they were shocked because they said you get this picture in your head of people when you hear their voices and you have to your brain , just makes something up that you can look at in your mind , makes connections .
Speaker 2And he imagined you as a 25-year-old guy . So he was not at all prepared to see the 60-year-old guy , old creepy , old dude , right no you're in great shape . You look good . I don't think there's anything . This is not a knock on you , but there's definitely . I mean , that's 40 years difference . He thought you were 40 years younger , based on your voice . So that must be your spirit , man .
Speaker 1My spirit is 25-year-old . I would never go back to 25 , just so everybody be clear 25 was not fun for me .
Speaker 2What if you go back to your 25 body but keep your 60-year-old mind ?
Speaker 1I would probably pull that off . Yeah , that'd be a fun weekend . A weekend , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , I wonder if you'd just become a lunatic again . I would clearly . I'm going to gas . Screw it Right . Let's go back to your old ways .
Speaker 1The deep end wasn't that bad . Let's jump off again .
Speaker 2There was some fun time .
Speaker 1All right , my brother , my partner in podcasting Any parting thoughts as we get out of here and let our brother and get back to their vocation .
Speaker 2Thank you for listening . We appreciate you . If you're listening to the show and you made it through this episode , we know that you're doing the work out there .
Speaker 1You're a levelhead . You're a levelhead now .
Speaker 2And I hope that you shake our hands and come up and meet us at Grand Lodge .
Speaker 1Yeah , please , we want to meet you .
Speaker 2Absolutely , because we just hear talking to imaginary people . And putting faces to the imaginary people would be really fulfilling to me . Yeah , me too I mean a lot if you could just come up and shake my hand if you've heard us or you're getting anything out of it at all , or if you just want to smack us in the face and tell us we're idiots and you disagree with us , we find to Skip the slapping part , but definitely come up and tell us that you disagree with us .
Speaker 1That's fine , no problems , All right , hey , until next time . Remember we're going to continue to go through master Mason degree .
Speaker 2The good stuff's coming .
Speaker 1So the good stuff's coming . Hang in there . So this time next week we'll put out another one . We're still doing pretty good on the Wednesday morning releases , so look for us .
Speaker 2We haven't missed one yet .
Speaker 1Yeah , look for us on Wednesday mornings .
Speaker 2Because we're professionals . Yeah right , we're professionals . What he said , what he said .
Speaker 1All right , my friends , my brothers , everyone out there , until the next time . We will see you then . Thank you .
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