On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Confronting Shadows: The Masonic Struggle for Racial Harmony and Inclusivity
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Navigating the murky waters of racism within the seemingly inclusive realms of Freemasonry, Chris and I, Fred, find ourselves compelled to address an issue that has long lurked in the shadows of our venerable institution. We're joined by voices from within the fraternity, bringing forth a candid discourse on how the private balloting system, meant to safeguard the integrity of our lodges, can sometimes be misused to propagate personal prejudices. Our conversation takes an intimate turn as we reveal the story of an African-American brother whose commendable character was overshadowed by the color of his skin during the voting process, forcing us to confront the uncomfortable truth of ongoing bias in our ranks.
As we peel back the layers of Masonry's historical relationship with race, particularly the dynamic between Prince Hall Lodges and mainstream bodies, we find a glimmer of hope in the steps taken by the Grand Lodge of Florida towards racial reconciliation. Our exchange becomes a reflection of the broader societal impact, using the Masonic lens to examine the discord sown by racism and the fraternity's potential to model unity and brotherhood. We're committed to spotlighting the discrepancies between the organization's ideals and the actions of its members, advocating for an environment where the Masonic principles of tolerance and self-improvement aren't just espoused but actively lived.
In a final rallying call, we stress the imperative for Masons to act as vanguards of change, challenging the status quo and leveraging our global influence to foster racial harmony. Sharing poignant narratives from our own experiences and those within the Masonic community, we underscore the potency of authentic fellowship in bridging divides. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's a clarion call to my fellow Masons and the world at large to build a future where the virtues of diversity are celebrated, and the bonds of brotherhood remain unbreakable.
Freemasonry and Racism
Speaker 1Hey , chris , yeah , fred , what's a Mason ?
Speaker 2That's a really good question , fred .
Speaker 1You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry . Join Chris and I as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft , from the common gavel to the trowel . Nothing is off the table , so grab your tools and let's get to work . This is On the Level . Well , brother , chris , how you doing , man , we are back .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1How's that for energy ? Yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , we're back . Great to be back here recording in our studio .
Speaker 1This is not our studio . It is . It is our studio . It is We've been kicked out of our original studio .
Speaker 2Never trust yourself .
Speaker 1Never trust the landlord .
Speaker 2Yes , this works pretty well , I like this setup .
Speaker 1We're right across from you . Yep , we have the camera . I don't mind it . I don't mind it . It's a hot mess going on right here , but we look really professional .
Speaker 2Oh yes , it sounds so professional Right ?
Speaker 1Oh yeah Right . The only reason we sound professional is because of the doohickey that does the thing that works , all that stuff that we pay for .
Speaker 2So yeah , I would hope you'd say more technical things , since I rely on you for all that stuff .
Speaker 1That's about as technical as I'm going to get brother .
Speaker 2It's the magic box that makes the sound come out .
Speaker 1The sound comes out and it comes out good . All right , enough of that , that was weird . Yeah , good morning .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Good morning . We are here in the morning time . That's correct On a Saturday morning , beautiful Saturday morning here in beautiful Florida . Yes , we have a topic that we were just a little bit hesitant to get into , but you know what ?
Speaker 2Another podcast would definitely not do this topic , but I think this is one of those lines in the sand that we probably drew for ourselves in the beginning .
Speaker 1I agree .
Speaker 2You know what ? Nothing's off the table for us , not for us , that's right .
Speaker 1We're . We're going to blaze through whatever comes our way , and I know that's what our the people who listen to us have come to expect from us . This is an open conversation about Freemasonry as we encounter it in our lives and , hopefully , as you encounter it in your lives .
Speaker 2So that's actually a great like explanation , I think , for the podcast is that we're really active , masons right and we experience a lot and we assume other people must be having same experiences .
Speaker 1We are , and we're finding that to be true . Thank you for your emails .
Speaker 2Here we are Just talking about , you know , returning something that happens into an hour to four part hour long episodes .
Speaker 1That's right .
Speaker 2And this is probably something that a lot of other people around the world also wish people would talk more about in some cases , yeah , disclaimer up front this is a hot topic .
Speaker 1Ok , this is a big one .
Speaker 2They've read the title of this one by now , probably , I would assume so .
Speaker 1And the title is Freemasonry and racism , and there's a reason for us having having this podcast come out as it did . Would you want to share a little bit about that , chris ?
Speaker 2Sure , it's been a . I mean , we're in the south here in Florida .
Speaker 1We are in the south , florida is in the south .
Speaker 2And you know it's a part of our history here , and it's not just history . It's still being lived for certain people , and we are an organization made up of people and even though our tenants and ideals may say one thing , people may feel another , and so then it comes into a situation of OK , are you a person with your background or are you a Mason ? That prescribes to the principal tenants of the fraternity , and at some point we hope to turn more people to masons than individuals with their own personal bias . Keep the bias , but learn tolerance , and I think that's what Masonry saying about inclusiveness , togetherness and how people of different races , country , sex and opinion should work together for the common good of man .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Right . So that's a long way to say . I personally recently experienced what I and others believe to have been racist issue at the ballot box .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And Freemasonry wasn't in a blue lodge . This was an appended body . For those that are listening , that aren't masons and are curious how we feel about this subject , thank you for not tuning us out when we said what the topic was , but it is something that we don't tolerate in the fraternity . But we do have a system set up that makes the way that we ballot very protected and very personal .
Speaker 1Maybe explain balloting a little bit .
Speaker 2That's the way we vote , oh sorry I was going for a pen and body explanation . So the core of Freemasonry is the blue lodge where you receive your three degrees . Once you receive your third degree you become a master Mason and then appended bodies open up that you can join , like the York right and the Scottish right and the grotto and the shrine and you've probably heard of at least one of those and then when you join an appended body as a Mason you still have to go through an initiation process of some kind . It's usually not as intense as when you join a lodge , but there is still a process where you're vetted and balloted on by the members of that body that you're trying to join Balloting .
Speaker 2The second issue we wanted to clarify is when you vote your conscience , and it is a completely private situation where you cast a white ball or a black ball and no one can see which one you drop in the hole . A white ball is a good vote , saying yes , I agree , and a black ball is a no vote , meaning I say nay . And in Freemasonry and in the appended bodies I think generally it needs in order for a new person to be added has to be all clear all white right . You can't have a single black ball which puts a lot of responsibility on an individual and a lot of freedom on an individual of how they're going to vote , because the fraternity actually does not allow us to talk about how we vote on petitioners right . New members .
Speaker 1Yeah , it is a truly secret ballot .
Speaker 2So how do you determine if somebody is perhaps going against their obligation ? Is a Mason Letting their personal bias against a person , or their race or their country of origin play into how they ballot on that person coming into their appended body or in the blue Lodge ? How can you stop ? That would be the question . What can you do about that ? Or should you do anything about that ? There's a lot of gray area around this topic in Freemasonry and I you know one of the reasons that I came to Freemasonry is because of the fellowship and the brotherhood . But once I got in and I started to learn the tenants and values and the principles and everything that they say Freemasonry stands for , that's when I think they got me . I was in . I was like wait , this is everything I had learned in Star Trek as a kid is here in Freemasonry .
Speaker 2We're supposed to help each other , be a little selfless . You know , work towards the common good of mankind . These are all ideas I grew up with . So , and you know , when I went through the degrees , I was repeatedly told that we're equal or the same .
Speaker 1On the level . On the level .
Speaker 2On the level which I think we did a podcast about what that means Freemasonry .
Speaker 1I hope so , because we named the show on the level with Fred and Chris . All right , go on .
Speaker 2Okay . So now we find ourselves we can go through the history of this issue . I think it's obvious .
Speaker 1Well , let's stick to why ?
Speaker 2What happened ? We're talking about it . Yeah , what happened ?
Speaker 1Give us , give us the , the generic framework . Yeah , what you saw , okay , you came and told me about it and you and I had a long conversation about it . So what did you see ?
Speaker 2Yeah , okay , good friend is involved .
Speaker 1Who will remain nameless ?
Racism and Bias in Freemasonry
Speaker 2Yes , for now , what's in it is in an independent body working actively . Has been a blue lodge member for October , 20 years or more .
Speaker 1OK , established brother .
Speaker 2Yes , Ex-military , works with children every day , very active in different groups in the fraternity . People had been recruiting him to join independent body for a long time and that happens to a lot of us . Once you , you know they like you , they're like oh , come hang out with this other group , which is all good intention .
Speaker 2But that means more dues , more dues , more dues is why people don't usually join independent bodies until they're a little more freed up with time , but this person did petition an independent body and a very high ranking person in the body signed his petition for him as evidence that he wanted him with them there . Ok , this independent body rarely gets people of different skin tones joining it , so it was a pretty interesting thing for them . I'm sure it doesn't happen every day . There were two petitions the night that this happened . There was a black one , meaning for a black person , and a Caucasian man . The black person was black , bald and the Caucasian man was white bald .
Speaker 1OK .
Speaker 2So the question would naturally rise how could a person of such high stature in the community , with such respect and background in the fraternity , be black bald ? There's a lot of reasons that that could happen , because it happens to I saw . Years ago I saw a person who was becoming a district deputy who was a white man go through the same process and try to join an independent body . Happened to be the same one and he was black bald .
Speaker 2So these things do happen and it is sometimes nothing to do with a person's skin color or creed . Sometimes it's a personal beef somebody has , or they know something bad about it , which would also be wrong , but yeah , that is wrong .
Speaker 2Yes , personal beef is wrong , because the purpose of our ballot is to protect the leadership of that body , because whoever you let in , we have to assume , will lead the body one day . So when you join as a candidate , a lodge , we're looking at you as becoming the master of that lodge . Correct , that's the level that we're holding you to when we meet you and try to figure out is this somebody that could be that type of a person for our fraternity ? And it's the same in the dependent bodies . If you're joining an dependent body and people know you and you tend to have problems , you make drama . If there's a legitimate reason that this person could be this harmonious , legitimately based on the actions that they have or their history of actions or perhaps they've done something illegal and you're worried they're going to do something illegal in the body it's our duty to protect the body first and vote no if we know something .
Speaker 2We're prohibited against using the power that we've been given as masons , as individuals , to use it in a way that allows us to exact vengeance . Get back at someone for some pick or coral . You have with them something very petty . Whether you're coming in as a new mason or joining an dependent body . Our mandate is to assume you're trying to do better . So if we know that you have that , maybe you're the type of guy that gets angry really easy . Or maybe you're the type of guy that doesn't shy away from getting loud with somebody . These are things we don't like in the fraternity . But you have to try to assume that someone's working on themselves and do you really want to be the person to get in the way of perhaps the best option for that person to improve themself ?
Speaker 1Right , right , because it's not about you . You're supposed to have your brother's best interest at heart . That's the idea . We don't . Administrators are there for the benefit and blessing of the body , not to lord over the body and or push their own personal agenda . So let me summarize a little bit here , all right . So you're at an dependent body function and there's balloting going on . Were you balloting as well ? No ?
Speaker 2I wasn't there this evening .
Speaker 1OK , so two men are being balled . By the way , the term blackballed , that's masonic , just so . You all know that that's where it comes from . So two men upstanding in the community . Both are known by the body that is voting . This gentleman in question is known generally by masons in the community because he's been so involved for so long . Veteran , I mean a well-established man , a good man who's making himself better . The melatonin of his skin happens to be different than the melatonin of the skin of the man who's also being balleted with . One happens to be darker than the other , by order of the grand architect of the universe , just going to throw that out there .
Speaker 1So , there is no reason , no earthly reason at face value , to look upon one man any different than you would the other man in any way , and to do so is about as unmasonic as you could freaking get . So the ballad takes place . The white man . He's in . The African-American gentleman , any question that we're talking about is not . He's been blackballed . This led you to feel as though somebody blackballed him based on the color of his skin .
Speaker 2What it did ? Is that it ? Oh yes , I'm very sensitive about . I would agree with you . Yes , so I didn't assume anything but I started asking questions and that's where the trouble began .
Speaker 1Let's hear about that .
Speaker 2Well , I asked the person why would somebody do this ? What legitimate reason is there In your history ? Just tell me , have you made somebody mad ? Did you do something improper ? And he did tell me . Well , there is one issue I had in the past with the lodge and when he explained it to me , the issues that he had with the person in this lodge or people his skin color was involved in that issue and those people were present on that night . Now , this is not an uncommon . Thing . It happens , like I said a lot .
Speaker 1It does .
Speaker 2Sometimes it has nothing to do with the color of your skin . It could be something as simple as and this is unfortunately the way people are Someone parked in my parking spot and now I'm going to get them back . Now I'm going to blackball like you do have that power .
Speaker 2It is a real thing in Freemasonry that you can do to another person and it does happen but that doesn't mean that the opposite doesn't happen . Also , that there are people that do have a prejudice or bias against other people , that are going against the tenets of what Freemasonry stands for and use the power of their vote to influence that person's joining a body or not joining the body improperly . That does also happen and this is the issue that we're talking about today . The big issue is we're not a racist organization . Freemasonry is not Our tenets , everything that we talk about .
Speaker 1According to Fred and Chris in our own Masonic Walk . We are not racist , neither is our lodge , because I know you , I know you and you would not tolerate it . Also , it's evident in the people who are joining our lodge . We have people from all different races in our lodge and they're welcome .
Speaker 2We're literally downtown in a pretty large and growing city and so obviously that community is going to be mixed . We don't live in rural , like you know , arcadia , where it's probably that community probably isn't that mixed , it's probably like a certain majority is going to be a certain way . But in a big city it's a lot more . It's a very different dynamic and that's reflected in our lodge I mean we have . If you look at the past masters , it's like many versions of Hispanic Serbian .
Speaker 1We have a very mixed crowd , right , yeah , which I'm all in favor . I'm in favor .
Speaker 2Jewish . Everything is there , it's all represented , and one of the things I loved about our lodge is we went and there was a large guy , bigger than me and older than me and strong man . He's from Haiti and he converted to Judaism , so he wore his yarmulke .
Speaker 2He's a big beefy security African-American guy wore his yarmulke at the lodge and I'm like wow , I've never seen this before . This is crazy . What a mixture we have here . So , yeah , I mean our lodge is like that and they would expect it to not stand in our lodge . Even if it wasn't the case even the chance that it could have been the case probably wouldn't be tolerated in our lodge .
Speaker 1Right . So let's be honest . So , OK , up in arms if it happened , sure , sure . However , masonry does have a racist pass . I'm sorry , there's no other way to .
Speaker 2Our entire country Exactly , and I like that better .
Speaker 1Our entire country went through just some terrible racism and slavery , which is the worst being . I'm just going to say , biblically speaking , the worst type of slavery that any human could impose upon another is called man-selling . The literal translation in the scripture is man-selling .
Speaker 1And it is absolutely forbidden in any and all of its forms . So , if you look at masonry in the South , I did a little bit of study on this and rest assured I'll be studying a lot more about this and there's a couple of people I definitely want to interview some historians who have gone through this Masonry through the Civil War , masonry in the South , masonry with regard to Prince Hall and all of those things , and we'll talk a little bit about that , For sure . But what's interesting to me is that masonry still remains . Masonry is here today . It's 2023 .
Speaker 1Masonry has been here since the founding of this country and prior to the founding of this country , it has gone through the days of active slavery in this country ownership , slave ownership , plantation ownership and then the abolitionist movement . It remained the Civil War . It remains through reunification and or , if you want to call it that , I don't know if it was actually reunification because the man who was supposed to lead reunification was assassinated , but anyways , we'll go forward Up into the 1900s , early 1900s , where systemic racism I don't like that term in its modern sense , but it was literally racism what became ingrained in our government , in our society , throughout our society , and probably because of the terrible way we dealt with the end of the Civil War was just brought a lot of bitterness and angst and pain between all sides , and I've studied the Civil War enough to know that it's not what we think it was . There's so much misinformation out there we really don't understand what the Civil War was really about . But we'll talk about that in another day . But here's the thing .
Speaker 2I have some friends in a lodge nearby that call it the War of Northern Aggression . The War of Northern Aggression , lincoln's War of Northern Aggression .
Speaker 1Well , they did enter Virginia and burned out a bunch of churches without any prior warning that was kind of a bad move guys Anyway very dark times . I'm not necessarily on one side or the other of the Civil . War debate only because I dug into it deep enough to know that most people don't realize actually what it was .
Speaker 2But it was a shit show .
Speaker 1Pardon , my French .
Speaker 2That's what it was .
Speaker 1And another politically motivated opportunistic grifters everywhere on both sides . It was just an absolute mess , like all of our entanglement generally are Back to . Masonry today remains and 2020 , we remain , and I'm looking at Prince Hall in Florida and Masonry in Florida and I'm seeing that they are still separated .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1That's true and , Mike , we had a question . We were at a Scottish Wright luncheon yesterday and we started having a conversation about that and what pissed me off and I'll say that is the fact that technically , Blue Lodge is directed by Grand Lodge of Florida to consider Prince Hall clandestine .
Speaker 2Yes , that is correct .
Speaker 1And that to me . And who am I ? I'm just some knucklehead on a podcast , fred . I'm Fred on a podcast and I'm just a new Mason , but to me that is unacceptable . Now , from understand this , you might be listening if you're a member of a Prince Hall Lodge and you're listening to this saying I don't care what you think , we have a Lodge , we're happy .
Speaker 2We don't need you .
Speaker 1My comment to you is I agree , I totally agree with that and I totally get that . I was thinking about this on the way over and now I'm going to get off this soapbox and let you get on yours . But to me , what needs to happen and what I'm willing to work towards is this that both lodges , both systems of Masonic Brotherhood open the doors . Only no mandates for what we have to do . This he's got to do nothing .
Speaker 2Let us see each other .
Speaker 1But open the damn doors . You're Masons , we're grown men and we're Masons . Open the freaking doors and then let grown men make decisions about what they want to do .
The Challenges of Masonic Racial Reconciliation
Speaker 1Do you want to go visit a Prince Hall Lodge ? Well , you can , you don't have to . Do you want to go visit a Blue Lodge ? Well , you can . You don't have to , and be done with this .
Speaker 2Yeah Well , that's the ideal . That would be ideal . Let's talk about some of the issues we've had and are experiencing in that . So a clandestine Mason is a Mason or body that is doing Masonry but isn't recognized by the Grand Lodge and the jurisdiction that it operates in . What Fred's saying is there's a Grand Lodge of Prince Hall Masons that operate in Florida . In fact , there are several Grand Lodges of Prince Hall Grand Lodges that operate in Florida and they are not recognized by the Grand Lodge of Florida that we operate our charters under . Therefore , we can't have Masonic communication with those brothers , meaning we can't go to their meetings or degrees or their social events and they can't come to ours . We can be friends with them , we can work together , we can have a life , but Masonic communication is not allowed if you're clandestine . And so the challenges they've had first of all were just the idea of racial segregation in the beginning . That was the first hurdle .
Speaker 1That stems from where that's coming from . That's why it remains today , because nobody's really done anything about it yet . Not that they're not doing anything about it . I know Grand Lodge is working on it . I know they're not sitting around trying to ignore it .
Speaker 2They've gotten much more aggressive in recent years . And trying to figure this out , the second issue once you get over the first one , which is OK , we don't hate each other on the basis of our skin color anymore , how do we work this out ? Then they start looking at who's , at the body that we have to deal with to make this work , because , in the state of Florida , prince Hall has divided into several different segments .
Speaker 2There are different Grand Lodges , so I'm not speaking with information that I'm reading from that has the facts . I'm telling you information I've been told , so giving you the best information I've got . Don't take it as truth . Do the research yourself . But what I've been told is there's many Grand Lodges and we've struggled to determine which one is the one we have to deal with to try to start working towards working together . Apparently , in the last I think 2018 , they officially started this . They selected one . We've been talking with one . At the last Grand Lodge session , prince Hall was invited to our Grand Lodge session by our Grand Lodge officers . They had visited their Grand Lodge and honorary memberships have been passed back and forth between the Grand Masters .
Speaker 1This makes me happy .
Speaker 2So this is where it has to start . They have to figure out , ok , who's who , who's making decisions , what does it look like ? And that's , I think , kind of where they're at in the process right now . And this is where other jurisdictions or states have our way ahead of us , because they've already done all this . There's only five , I think , left in the South that are still struggling with this , and again , because it took the South longer to get over that first hurdle , which is we're not going to be systemically racist anymore in our jurisdictions .
Speaker 2There are people that have biases that live in those jurisdictions , but it won't be the policy of the state anymore , so got past that . But we're still dealing with this , the byproduct , which is there are people that have those biases still that are enacting their will within the organization , causing that to be a living problem still , and the reason that systemic is an award we want to use , because the system of free masonry doesn't support racism but , the system of free masonry is still supporting racism . So it's a difficult topic to talk about .
Speaker 1Well , I think that it's because if we do nothing , it's going to stay this way and that's what's happened . There's other issues . Look , I think from an outsider's point of view I'm not technically an outsider , but I'm looking at this thinking the Prince Hall guys are happy , they're doing their thing . They're happy they don't really need us necessarily . We're doing our thing and we're not necessarily unhappy .
Speaker 2That's why it's gone on so long . And that's why it's gone on so long . There's no fires anywhere . We're like we figured it out , we can work . It coexists Right .
Speaker 1Right and there's probably workarounds and stuff that our people are doing .
Speaker 1If they want to get together , they're getting together , they're doing work together . I think that just makes the time right for us to lead the way into this racial reconciliation and just make a point that the state of Florida is going to actively work towards opening these doors , officially opening these doors and I did a little bit of study this morning . Actually , the state of Wisconsin was the first to open those doors . They were the first one in 1977 . They changed their charter . They actually changed the verbiage in their charter to include forbidding considering anyone based on their race , creed or end or color . That was in the 70s and that was in the late 1970s . So Wisconsin has led the way on this that's crazy .
Speaker 1Yeah yeah , I was listening to Jonathan Schroeder . I'm desperately trying to find him and would love to get him on the show and talk to him . He's a historian who has done a lot of work with masonry and the Civil War , masonry and racism , masonry and Prince Hall , so I definitely desperately want to speak with this man . I'm going to track him down , I will stalk him and track him down and I will try to get him on the show Once we do get to that point , chris , where we do have guests on the show . I know that's something we're working towards .
Speaker 2I think we're getting close to him . We're getting there . We're getting there . We're figuring this out a little . You still call it the magic box , so we'll let you know what it's called the magic box we rub it and good things happen .
Speaker 1Don't be good to us , please . I have no idea what you're talking about .
Speaker 2Well , okay , we're back to this difficult topic . It's hard to talk about because people don't want to address that . This is an issue that's still happening . They think it's behind us . I was like that at one point in my life . I'm from upstate New York . I didn't know a lot of people that didn't look like me . I was like this is dumb , this is in the past .
Speaker 2It wasn't until I moved to Florida that I realized this isn't actually in the past , this is still happening , it's not nearly the same as it was , but the mentality has clearly been passed down through time that other people are less than you because of , maybe not even just their skin color , but because of their status or the social economic status that they were born into is going to label who they are for the rest of their life in some people's minds .
Speaker 2If you're born in a ghetto , you're going to be a ghetto person . You can never get out . For certain people , there's a natural bias there that it's tough to overcome because that's what they've been surrounded by their whole life . When you join a fraternity whose principal tenants are freedom , brotherly love and equality , okay , it's time to ask yourself are you a person who belongs in that organization If you can't change your personal beliefs ? Or if you can't change your personal beliefs , just stamp them down enough not to get in the way of other people All right , you can change your beliefs , but you can change your behaviors .
Speaker 2Behaviors . Yeah , change your behaviors . Yeah , you can .
Speaker 1And to me , hypocrisy drives me nuts . And don't get me wrong , we're all human , so we all have hypocritical tendencies . We just do . It's part of that brokenness of us , but to be in an organization that is dedicated to brotherly love and acceptance equality , liberty , peace who believes in a grand architect who made us all the same for the purpose of benefiting the creation .
Addressing Racism in Freemasonry
Speaker 1It's really tough for me to know that in your mind you're going to choose one man over another simply because the melatonin in his skin is different than yours , for no other reason . I got no time for that . I got no patience for that . I got to be honest with you , man . It's just like I'm not one to go root them out . I don't think that's the way we do that here . But I don't understand you is what I'm saying .
Speaker 1If you're listening to this podcast and I hope you are and you have that in your heart it is my sincerest prayer and hope , brother , that you will begin to reevaluate this hypocrisy of yours , because that's what it is . It's hypocrisy . Either give up the lodge or give up this nonsense that you've got going on in your own heart , because I can tell you where I come from . I have known all race , creeds and colors , and here's my insight to anybody who wants to know . From a guy who's been on both sides of the railroad tracks , I can tell you this you don't have to be white , black , hispanic , green , red to be an asshole . Okay , because you can be in any race , any race at all , and you can be a complete jerk . I have seen it . It is not subject to one race , creed or color . Every human being can be a total ass . It's totally true .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , well , we all are . It's part of the human condition , that's right .
Speaker 1That's right I can love and care for and reach out to any man , regardless of his color . I've done so in my life . I've tried not to be . You know , I was brought up in the government school systems of Southern California where the race riots in the mid to late 80s were pretty prevalent and race the separation between African American kids and white kids was palpable . It was everywhere and there were gang riots and there was a murder . One of my friends was murdered , not necessarily a friend . One of my classmates was murdered while talking on a phone booth by a gang that stabbed him to death .
Speaker 2A phone booth that dates you right there , yeah right Phone booth .
Speaker 1That's the square . It's not a TARDIS , because TARDIS is aren't real , but it's it's . That's what a phone booth is . But anyways , kids today have no idea , and so racism was more like it was . It was this ridiculous us versus them , and it was fostered , literally fostered by I'm sorry , I hate to say it , but by the government school system . It was they ? They ? They fostered it because they had . They had African American counselors and they had white counselors and they had .
Speaker 1Hispanic counselors and everybody had to go to their counselors and get their counseling , which was all orchestrated by the government school system . It was an absolute farce because when I grew up and got out of the government school system and began to interact with people of different races and creeds and colors , it's like I said I realized you don't have to , you can be a jerk you can be an ass , you can be an ass in any race , greed or color it doesn't matter .
Speaker 1And and of course , on the positive side , you can be a good man from any race , and I've experienced it in my life . I don't . I don't hold any of that . It's a waste of time . It's also a waste of resources , because you're going to cut off African American people and make up 19% of our population . You're going to cut 19% . That's millions of people , millions and millions of human beings . You're going to cut them out of your life simply because they're a different color than you are . That's , that's nonsense . Why would you even consider doing such a thing ?
Speaker 2Anyways , I'm ranting that's . That's just one color , but in Florida , where I think the minority that's most prevalent here is Hispanics- yeah , absolutely . Different versions of you know poppy areas of the world .
Speaker 1From South America generally .
Speaker 2Sure . So it's big , you know , down here , and so may not be a black person , it may be a Hispanic person . That's getting the , you know , the biased ballot , and I was , and this is just . I don't want to harp on like this is a racist organization because it's not .
Speaker 1It's not . It is not a racist organization . Our documents that we hold to are not racist .
Speaker 2It's not , and so I don't want it to seem like that's what we're saying . What we're saying is we need to talk about the fact that this is an issue in the area that we live in and in the organization that we're a part of .
Speaker 1Agreed .
Speaker 2And we have to be aware of it . Conscious of it and see what can we do to stamp it down if it's happening . So I wanted to read that something out of our blue monitor .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2This is coming from the Entered Apprentice lecture that you get on the very first day you become a Mason .
Speaker 1Be careful not to read the Illuminati parts .
Speaker 2Yes , I'll try to keep that the part about getting rich by selling goats to people .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2This is about brotherly love , and I'm reading this . It is not a secret , it's published and anyone can read it . By the exercise of brotherly love , we are taught to regard the whole human race as one family , the high , the low , the rich , the poor , who being created by one almighty parent and inhabitants of the same planet to aid , support and protect each other . On this principle , mason reunites men of every country , sect and opinion and conciliates true friendship among those who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance .
Speaker 1See , that's just . I love that . I love that last part . You know otherwise , if it weren't for our fraternity , there are people who otherwise would have remained estranged .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1And we bring together . Bringing together people who would otherwise have not known each other and known their cultures and their differences and learned from each other . You know , and that's I mean to me , to me it's a big issue only because we see it on a local level . And then , if you're listening to this , you know what we're talking about . There are men in the fraternity who are racists , I mean , and they don't speak out necessarily , although some do , but it comes out in some of their behaviors and some of the things they say .
Speaker 2You hear it around . I mean , I'm in the south and I hear it around .
Speaker 1Sure .
Speaker 2I've heard , never we had a black master in our district and I heard people in our district say never in my lodge , should never happen in my lodge .
Speaker 1And so you know .
Speaker 2I know everybody knows it's around , but we're talking about how to protect the fraternity now .
Speaker 1Right , that's what we're talking about , that's right .
Speaker 2The issue we talked about at the beginning and the situation that we talked about . It did happen here , locally , but we're not saying that it was a racist person or that it was a racist situation . We're just using that to illuminate a situation that raises enough questions to talk about it , Like the question is there . Why one guy and not the other ? What's different ? One guy has a better history than the other and wasn't voted in . What's different ? There's one major difference , One major difference .
Speaker 1So they have the conversation right Right .
Speaker 2And we're neither one of us are saying this is a racist situation , this is a racist person .
Speaker 1No , that cannot be proven .
Speaker 2No , and that's one of the issues we deal with in Freemasonry . So this happens and we can't ask , hey , why you can't ? You can't ask why , Right , we just have to trust that someone didn't do it for the wrong reasons . But the person is injured and the people around him become injured by it , and so Freemasonry has past grandmasters had made rulings and decisions that give the presiding officer , when something like this happens , the ability and the power to overturn the ballot .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Right Now .
Overturning Ballots in Freemasonry Dilemma
Speaker 2That's a pretty scary thought for somebody that's in power in a body when this happens , because to negate the vote of one of your members is a pretty serious thing . You can imagine , like if you're the guy that's trying to stop something bad from happening and you did your duty and you did it properly , and then somebody says sorry , I'm going to let this go anyways . You could see there's the danger that you know you , something that you were doing for a good reason , like trying to protect the lodge or the body from somebody bad , or something that you know that they might do to harm it being overturned is a scary , dangerous prospect . On the other side of that coin , you have the potential for people that may have racist feelings in their heart to use the power of their ballot to exercise their racist thoughts to keep people of color out . That is also a real thing . That is a situation that happens and then that hurts everybody . That one person is . You know the question that will hang over that election for some time . The question is there like oh wow , I guess you know persons of color , whether it's brown or black or yellow or purple . They're going to question . Maybe I shouldn't do that because I saw what happened there , maybe I shouldn't go there , and so that one individual was able to have an impact that's going to last for a long time over that entire body , so that one brother is hurting all the other members of that body , who probably completely disagree I can guarantee you completely disagree with that being something that's acceptable . So the challenge is going to fall on the presiding officer on the night of the ballot .
Speaker 2That's where the real hard decision has to be made .
Speaker 2And you know , I was having a conversation with a very high-ranking person in our district and I said hey , I hope you know if this happens to me , just understand , in this same situation that happened over there , if that happened here , me as the presiding officer would overturn it , because I think it does more harm and to the greater good of that body to allow it to happen and the question of that to hang over you , then it does to , you know , hurt that brother who didn't tell you anything in advance .
Speaker 2If I , as the presiding officer , we have discussions before the ballots are made and you can have private conversations before the ballots are made , so if no one has come to me , given me any information to the contrary , and I and the recommend the petitioners , the person who signed the petition I respect those people and their judgment and the people who investigated the person . I respect those people and their judgment . I have to assume , as the presiding officer , that the person of color is being persecuted against by the ballot . I think it's the only way to be sure that the people that want to do this stop doing it . If they don't succeed at it , they'll stop doing it and generally , even though it's a secret ballot , everybody knows Sure .
Speaker 1That's right .
Speaker 2Everybody kind of knows usually how it's a small world that we live in here Not everybody , but I think people generally kind of know who's doing what , even though we don't publicly talk about it .
Speaker 2So you know , word gets around , and so Grand Lodge in my mind has recognized that this is something that happens that this is a flaw , potentially , in the system of Freemasonry , and some grandmasters have ruled hey , here's a mechanism that we can use to prevent this and fix this and maybe over time it'll go away . And so the question is are you , as the presiding officer on the night of a ballot , going to overturn that or not ? And that's a question that only you can make , the particulars of your body that you're presiding over , the members , the person being . You know there's way too many variables to just flat out say always overturn it . Because you can't do that either , because maybe the person's known to have been an issue . Even , like you said , there's assholes of every group .
Speaker 2Yes , right , so maybe the person is an asshole , maybe it's a bad decision . You can't just overturn every single time that it happens . It's a real dilemma . It's a dilemma In Freemasonry .
Speaker 1And we're not going to change who we are and how we act as masons as far as our standards go , because that's when you get into trouble . That's a slippery slope that you get into . I mean , you start not adhering to the doctrines of your organization and fraternity . You will lose your fraternity over time . One of the reasons why Masonry remains exactly the same as it's been since George Washington went through it and prior to him is because of that very fact . We don't minimize and we don't change any of our standards because of political or social pressure .
Changing Hearts and Minds
Speaker 1The truth of the matter is this and this is what I was thinking of while you were talking there is that the only way an issue like racism changes is by changing the hearts and minds of people . You have to change the hearts and minds , and that's of every race . It doesn't matter if you're white , black , brown , green , red or blue . Unless we change hearts and minds , it's just going to remain the same .
Speaker 1I believe that within the work and the working tools and the lectures and educational tools of Freemasonry is a pathway for changing hearts and minds towards true brotherly love and care . I mean , it's there , it's all there if you want it , if you're still in Freemasonry . I've said this before and I'm saying it to you again if you're in Freemasonry and you're still stuck in that rut , you're , you're not looking at masonry for what it is . You're not understanding what you're , what you're in . You're in a men's club in your own mind . You've you've probably joined a lodge and you have a bunch of other people around you that feel the same way . But it's not Masonic man .
Speaker 2It's not you're not .
Speaker 1You're not becoming , you're not the good man Becoming a better man , you're not be being perfected for use by the master in building that temple , mm-hmm . Therefore , what are you and why are you here ?
Speaker 2and this is a theme that keeps popping up as we talk about these different subjects is If we don't Police ourselves , we run the risk of losing ourselves .
Speaker 1That's right .
Speaker 2If we don't , it's hard to be a good person . It's hard to Follow the tenets of free masonry all the time . It's really hard .
Speaker 1It is , it's counterintuitive , it's , it's not natural .
Speaker 2It's not natural . You can't do it without God's help and your brothers and it's tough , you know in and free masonry were supposed to whisper wise counts in the ear of an airing brother . We have this digest , the masonic law . We have all these levels of bureaucracy between you know elected appointed officers , masters , district deputies , grand people . There are layers of leadership that you can go through if to try to resolve your issues , and what I've experienced is if you start doing that , people try to shut you down pretty quick right , I've seen it and I've been part of it , I've Overheard it , I've had friends involved and the first time you say I think something really bad's happened here .
Speaker 2We might need to I've already talked to the person they don't care , or they told me to go pounds and the next step is supposed to be let's have this looked at , let's , you know , investigate this . But everyone will tell you don't do that , please don't do that right .
Speaker 2You're gonna be the bad guy . All the whole lodge is gonna look like the bad guy . Don't just let's make it go away . Quite keep it quiet . That is how you change your organization . People are afraid of change . Well , it's being changed for the worse all the time .
Speaker 1That's every time that in action is a choice .
Speaker 2It's being changed for the worst . Yeah , that's right because it's real clear on who we're supposed to be right clear on what our ideals are and our principles , but if we don't hold ourselves accountable to that , we won't be that , we'll be something else . Something not what we say . We are .
Speaker 1Yeah well , we'll be hypocrites .
Speaker 2Yeah , hypocrites , which is one of the worst things to be I .
Speaker 1I just I don't , I just I can't stand that . Like I said earlier , we're all hypocrites at some level or at some time . It's part of our brokenness . It happens we we judge people for the very same things that we do .
Speaker 2Yeah , it happens all the time , you know especially when you're behind the wheel . Yeah , I was just thinking that driving you're yelling at the guy for texting and driving .
Speaker 1I'm not realizing that two and a half hours ago you were doing the same exact thing to the guy behind you .
Speaker 1Yeah , you're so right and that's hypocrisy and it's a human condition . But , as Masons , within the Mason Lodge and the Mason government , we we need to be , we need to do better and and if , if there is , if there are people in in the line or in the Lodge who are blatantly Working against other people simply because of the color of their skin , well then we I'm . It's my hope that we begin a conversation and a culture that would change that look .
Racial Reconciliation and Masonry's Role
Speaker 1Racial reconciliation is being tried by the world and they're failing at it miserably right now . I mean it , it's driving a wedge further and further between the races and I can't help but think that it might be , you know , to their advantage . But that's , that's Fred the conspiracy theorist .
Speaker 1But why shouldn't Masonry lead the way ? Why shouldn't we lead the way ? Fine , though the world is trying to to rid the world of races , of racism by becoming Racists , that's not gonna work , sorry , it just isn't gonna work . All right , but why not it within the walls and halls of Masonry ? Why don't we lead the way , societally and communally , to bring together two large bodies of people ? Okay , you're talking about thousands and thousands of men in the state of Florida who are , who are masons , some Prince Hall , some blue light or Grand Lodge masons , let's call them . Why can't we open those doors up and just say let's see what happens , and I'm ? The answer is that we can , and the answer is we are .
Speaker 1They are working towards I am not saying I've said it before , I'm gonna say it again the Grand Lodge of Florida is Working towards that and and I'm not . I'm not in opposition to what they're doing . I think they're doing a good job .
Speaker 2Well , you'll meet . You'll meet the Grand officers of the Prince Hall masons in a few months .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm excited .
Speaker 2We might have them on the show . I am even more excited . I met the Grand Secretary and the Grand Master last year with right-worshift Tom Haber and Zack , our senior warden . We got to hang with those guys and meet them . Really interesting , very different , in fact . We should talk about that for a minute , but I did want to just go back to my what I was saying , which is Last week . We said hey , if you can't find this inspirational person in your lodge , you're the guy .
Speaker 1You're the guy . You just got tapped . You're not inspirational guy .
Speaker 2Sorry , no one else . You got to do it . And it's the same situation here . People are afraid to raise issues , people are afraid to hold people accountable , for a variety of reasons . You know your district deputy doesn't want you to , your master doesn't want you to . Nobody wants the issues , nobody wants to have to deal with those kinds of issues , because it's really difficult to find a resolution that's harmonious . You're gonna make somebody mad , somebody's gonna leave with bad feelings . But If you can't find anybody that's willing to be the person to stand up , guess what that might need to be you . You might need to Be the person that says this is unacceptable . This is what I have to say . This is what the digest says about it . Somebody should look into this . So this is .
Speaker 2Let me just read to you what the digest says about this , because this is a lot of people don't realize that this is even in our masonic digest . A petition for the degrees or visitation of An otherwise duly qualified visiting Mason may not be ejected to by a member of a particular lodge if the Objection is based upon the grounds of race , creed or color . That's from 1993 , a Dark balacast based solely on a candidate's race , creed or country of origin shall be found . Clear and clear is in all caps and the candidates shall be initiated past and raised without Objection . Without objection is in all caps , unless a valid objection is forthcoming . That's from 2008 , section's 107 , 108 of the masonic digest , clear , without objection clear and bold in that sense clear meaning the , the black ball , has been deemed white correct .
Speaker 2Yes , and it actually says unless a valid objection is forthcoming . So you're to assume that this was because of this and make it clear and Then , if , if somebody has a legitimate issue , they are to come and give you the legitimate issue .
Speaker 1Okay , let me tell you a story I heard yeah , I heard a story that the there was a lodge they were voting on a predominantly white lodge , voting on an African-American brother to come in , and there was talk in the lodge of black ballingham for racist reasons . This word got back to the worship of master . Okay , the worship of master went to the senior warden and junior warden and told them I don't care how many black balls are in that box , you're gonna call it clear , got it . And they both said got it . And that's what they did .
Speaker 2According to what you just read , there's direct sir . There's direction in the masonic digest . That that's how we're supposed to operate is presiding officers . I love it , unless a A valid objection is forthcoming . So now it's on the burden of the black baller to come explain themselves .
Speaker 1If they've got the nerve to actually stand up and say Right .
Speaker 2I know for a fact . People don't understand this , because when this issue happened locally , when I raised the issue , almost everybody in any leadership role told me the opposite of this .
Speaker 1Is that right ?
Speaker 2They have to tell you that they're gonna do the racist thing before they do it . For you to overturn it , the digest says wrong . You should overturn it and let them explain to you why you made a mistake in overturning it , if there's a legitimate reason .
Speaker 1Which makes sense , because that would get to the truth . Right , that's an avenue , because if , if I'm the worst full master and I and I overturned something With the hope that the person who is now offended that I did so would come forward and say why , then all's I have to do is say , brother , I'm sorry , that's a legitimate reason I apologize and I had to go .
Speaker 2I hope you understand .
Speaker 1I was just trying to protect the integrity and then we can read the doc right right here . I had to do it . I had to do it .
Speaker 2Yeah , and now you're doing your job . Good , we'll go ahead and make this the black ball that it should be , and it's like I said before , free masonry is a perp is an exercise in self-government .
Speaker 1If done correctly , if people will read the , the digest , read our documents , understand our government . It is a . It is an example of self-governance through and through man .
Speaker 2Please look at that . Send . Send the digest , please , because of the leadership that I know that I respect . Didn't know this was in the digest . I didn't know , until I look for it myself , how it was worded and how it's supposed to be handled . And that's how it is in free masonry when you deal with an issue and you hear something , you see something , someone asks you a question . The digest is online and can be searched 24-7 by anybody right right so please , you can't interpret it .
Speaker 2There's only one man in the state who's allowed to do that , but sometimes it's pretty black and white .
Speaker 1That right . There is pretty clear black and white yeah man , do your job .
Speaker 2This was suspicious , sorry , this is gonna be clear . You have an opportunity . Come tell me how I'm wrong and what , if I am , will fix it . That's the most Democratic way to safeguard , you know , the integrity of our elections . I think in free masonry . So , if nothing else , I just hope people I'm gonna get the time stamp and put it in the comments for people to come Listen to that section of the digest , because that one thing , if the people presiding over the elections are aware of it and pretty much pretty quickly start to make this stuff go away , just through some education here . So , that being said , prince Hall is really fascinating , absolutely , and we are gonna meet him . So People may not know the history of Prince Hall , do you mind if I give them the quick five minute version ?
Speaker 1Well , and I got a little bit . Oh , you do , go ahead , go ahead because I've been doing a little study as well . But I just I'll just add to whatever you're saying , if I can . That is well , I don't have much
Prince Hall Freemasonry and Integration
Speaker 1so .
Speaker 2Prince Hall was a black man who fought in war With and this was in the 17 late 1700s , right , yeah he's from Barbados originally .
Speaker 1He's Barbadian bar . He's from Barbados . Where's Barbados ? Barbados is in the eastern Antilles , the lower eastern Antilles beautiful . Where are they ?
Speaker 2One of the cruise ship I . It's the Caribbean , then yeah , okay .
Speaker 1Yeah , the the eastern Antilles .
Speaker 2I think , is what what it is the lower ?
Speaker 1It's a beautiful . I've been there . It's absolute . The people are gorgeous Really .
Speaker 2Oh , my gosh about the women . Now I'm talking about the women , yeah , okay , of course . Now the men are gorgeous . They are , they're all gorgeous people .
Speaker 1I mean , they absolutely are , and I'm sure the country's beautiful it's beautiful yeah . I've always said that if I ever disappear , You'll know where to find me .
Speaker 2I'll be on the beach in Barbados , the lower .
Speaker 1Antilles yeah , man drinking room , punch man Hmm .
Speaker 2Where was I ?
Speaker 1I don't know , oh Prince .
Speaker 2Hall , yes , prince Hall . At late 1700s , in wartime , many Blacks fought in the war grant for the , for the British , for the British correct okay . In . In wartime they had war lodges because Mason was such a huge thing at the military Logs .
Speaker 1I'm sorry , I said war lodges war .
Speaker 2Military lodges , and military lodges were actually making masons of the people that were there and they would , all you know , have their meetings together and it was . You could imagine that that would be a pretty useful thing in a , you know , group of men that are out there together , fighting a war , together , to be able to sit and talk about intellectual things instead of just the crap they were probably dealing with on a daily basis and the death . So Apparently , prince Hall was initiated in the American Revolutionary War correct and black men weren't allowed to be initiated into Lodges because they were not freeborn right it's an issue , and so , apparently through the Grand Lodge of Ireland in 1775 he was initiated in military lodge .
Speaker 2The 38th foot renamed the first Staffordshire Regiment in 1782 and I think they were based out of Boston .
Speaker 1Yeah , massachusetts , that's right , and so he was a Mason .
Speaker 2And when the war was over he went back to his life up north and wanted to make more masons , and so he petitioned the Grand Lodge of England , because now he's a he's a Mason already , right . And the Grand Lodge apparently authorized the the creation of a black lodge , and Prince Hall was the master of that lodge . And so they were allowed to create a lodge under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of England and make new Masons , and everything was going well . It wasn't until they had enough membership that they wanted to charter a second lodge that it became a problem . So they were granted a charter to create a lodge . They were regular masons with free masonry they were . Everything was great .
Speaker 2But the Grand Lodge of England refused to allow them to charter new lodge , and apparently they chartered new lodges anyways , and the second that that happened they became clandestine , which means they're no longer Recognized by the Grand Lodge of England as being part of the greater fraternal organization , and they were shunned at that point . And that continued for 100 years , More than a hundred years maybe , and of course now I'm not one that likes to go back in history and judge people in the past by right . You know the cultural norms of today , right , I think that's a big mistake .
Speaker 1Yeah , huge mistake .
Speaker 2If you were born and lived at that time , you'd be the same , I hate to tell you . You wouldn't have been magically having these thoughts in your head . You'd have been raised and taught that this is normal , and so I don't , you know , judge these people for what they did in the past , because it was what it was then . But we have changed , we progressed through time , and today it is what it is today and it's very different . And so in our recent past since you know the late 70s , 80s , 90s we started to re-recognize each other as culture changed and we reintegrate as a society . Freemasonry wanted to reintegrate as well , and so most of the grand jurisdictions in the United States have recognized Prince Hall and do work together . There are like five states in the South that still haven't .
Speaker 1Right , and we're one of them . We're one of them . So Georgia , south Carolina .
Speaker 2Yep , louisiana maybe .
Speaker 1Louisiana .
Speaker 2I don't know . There's a few of them and we can probably name them , but I most hate to do it . Yeah , we don't need to do that .
Speaker 1We know Florida is definitely .
Speaker 2Florida is in the process , and now our grand lodges are talking . Right , and so it's only a matter of time until . But here's the issue , though with the Prince Hall in Florida , we have recognized the grand lodge we are talking . Here's the issue . One of the issues in the state of Florida Prince Hall Freemasonry is on another level than our masonry , like in our lodge . The officers in some lodges were required to dress nice . There are lodges in Florida where they wear shirts and jeans , you know right .
Speaker 2Sure , but most of our we , for example , wear black suits with white gloves . It's pretty fancy . Yes , it is Prince Hall . Every member that attends a lodge must wear a tuxedo .
Speaker 1Right . Not just the officers , not just the masters , they put it on man , everybody wears a tuxedo and presents themselves in the best possible light .
Speaker 2There are . Dues are , on average are between a hundred and two hundred dollars a year . There's over a thousand dollars a year . So you can imagine the fear of that organization saying wait , so all of my members can come and see that they can do kind of the same stuff and pay that much less to be a member . We're going to lose all of our members . There's there's a legitimate fear there that they will not exist if they have to compete with us directly on the just on the level of dues . Our dues are so much cheaper . So I think they have concerns as well that need to be addressed . Like I don't want you to just come in and see all my members because you recognize us . I get that .
Speaker 1Yeah , no .
Speaker 2I . There's some details that have to be worked out there to protect the you know the future of both organizations and respect the culture and the history of both organizations and still make it where we can sit and talk with them as mason's as mason's in lodge .
Speaker 1Like I said , the only thing we need to happen here is open the doors . We're grown men , we're mason's , and we're grown men on both sides of this issue . They , if they've got something , you know if they got their issues that they didn't want to protect or they need that's . That's up to them . They're grown men , we're grown men . We don't need anybody from on high to tell us how to do this . What we need is the doors to just be open and if that can happen , where the doors are open , where see , I can't go to a Prince Hall Lodge and sit in meeting .
Speaker 1No , because my , my order won't let me Correct . See , it's not on them . I don't know how they would receive me , I don't know what , what their , their doctrinal stance is on it , but I can't go in there because of my obligation . So that's what I'm saying . That's opening the door . If , if , that door can be just opened , and then that's it . That's all that has to happen . Organically , it will begin to happen . Look , if , if , if Prince Hall is afraid of losing membership because their dues are so high , they're going to have to deal with that . Their dues are probably so high because they don't have enough members to keep them alive , that's probably why ?
Speaker 1Sure , if they open it up , they probably will have more members and the dues can start to come down , and that's just an organic thing . But let let peace and love and harmony reign , man . Let let let it just happen organically within the two fraternities and and see where it leads , you know , because that's , that's the right thing to do .
Freemasonry, Racism, and Hope for Change
Speaker 2I couldn't agree with you more .
Speaker 1And I'm not saying . I'm not saying , I know right .
Speaker 2Couldn't agree with you more . I'm not saying I want his world peace .
Speaker 1I think , I think that that what ?
Speaker 2can it get some version of that in the near future ? Yeah , I agree , I agree and I'm excited .
Speaker 1I'm excited to hear it , to see where where it's going to go . Like I said , why can't Masonry lead the way here ?
Speaker 2When it does , you and I will be walking over to the lodge , which is a few streets away from us .
Speaker 1Cool .
Speaker 2The Prince Hall Lodge , introducing ourselves to their leadership and doing some joint work with them . We're going to do that . We're just waiting for our grand lodge to tell us it's okay to do that . I'm down with that so if you're listening and you're in the grand line . Please help us . We want to work together with our brothers and we'll support you and them in any way we can , just like we do with everyone and everything else in Freemasonry . You know , if there's a hurricane , it doesn't matter .
Speaker 1We're there , we're there , we're there . We're going to build your roof back up . We're going to help you .
Speaker 2That's the point . You know it should be good to work with some more brothers locally that are Freemasons and understand , and you know it's hard work to bring guys in and get them educated about the system of Freemasonry and see if they have time in their lives . Those guys already are all vetted , already know everything and clearly had time in their life . We could just become stronger together and doing good in our communities , and that's what Freemasonry is all about .
Speaker 1And what a great example we could be to the greater communities of this nation that is so fragmented . We are so broken on racial lines .
Speaker 2It's absolutely horrible , you know , but it does seem to be getting with political politics and race . It all seems to be getting worse than it used to be . Well , yeah , there's .
Speaker 1You know it's the us versus them . As long as the people of the United States are pointing fingers at each other , nobody's going to take the time to point at the leadership who are the problem and say we need to effect change there . That's where the change is . As long as they can keep you and I fighting left versus right , black versus white , hispanic versus whatever , and they're free to do whatever they want .
Speaker 1Then they just keep grifting and grifting , and grifting until it's all over . And that's why I say why can't , why shouldn't Freemasonry lead the way on this issue ? We should be , we should be at the forefront of it . We have the manpower , we have the mandate to do it .
Speaker 2We must because it's who we are .
Speaker 1It's who we are man . We must do it , and I think that's a really good spot to end this particular podcast . Woo . Freemasonry and racism . But , we started with Freemasonry and racism and we ended with Freemasonry and the hope of brotherly love , harmony and harmony and change . So I don't know , I think it was a pretty good podcast . Good job .
Speaker 2Good job , brother . It's true we're here talking about a difficult subject . That no one generally wants to talk about . Yeah , that's right it didn't have to be a pointing finger . You're bad , I'm good Kind of a situation . No , it's like here's the issues on both sides how do we fix this ? Digest has a way to fix it . How about we just follow the digest ?
Speaker 1That's right and by changing hearts and minds . Changing hearts and minds that's the only way anything changes . You don't change it by law . Law doesn't change anything . People , it's grace , it's mercy , it's kindness and truth . That's what changes people . So another good podcast , my brother . Hey , if you guys are out there listening and you are to the very end and we love you for that man .
Speaker 1Thank you Again . Gratitude for all of the emails and responses . We are literally getting responses from around the world and I'm just so pleased , I'm pleased to know that free masonry is alive and well around the world . It's really true , guys . I mean it's really . We really are everywhere .
Speaker 2It's funny , because the thing that boggles my mind is we're here in Sarasota , florida , in this lodge , yeah , and when we talk about the things that we're dealing with , you hear somebody , and I don't remember where he was in England . He was like hey guys , same thing . I got only 20 people and only 10 show up and I'm having the same problems you guys are talking about .
Speaker 2Right , right , yeah , it'd be great , no one's thought about this . Let's try what you're trying , and so the more we talk and communicate with each other , the stronger we'll be as a whole .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right .
Speaker 2Free masonry is a really crazy system of like decentralized existence , Like we're all the same but we're so disconnected we don't have any kind of way of standard communication throughout the world or even in our states . So this new medium is a really interesting prospect that's never existed before in free masonry .
Speaker 1I agree , we share ideas yeah .
Speaker 2We can like take notes and checks and all that work . For you , that's a problem Interesting . This is how we like we can coordinate our efforts globally now through technology .
Speaker 1It just blows my mind . It blows my mind Clearly and let us just reiterate to everyone listening Fred and Chris do not know what they're doing , so we just want to make sure you understand that . True , but if you do want to send us emails , I'm Fred at on the level with Fred and Chriscom and you are .
Speaker 2I'm Chris at on the level with Fred and Chriscom .
Speaker 1We would ask you to leave us . If you're listening to us on Apple Podcast , please take a minute to give us a five star rating and say something nice about us and or challenge us With questions and or whatever via email or any of the podcast . But that five star rating does a lot of good for the podcast . If you want to support us , that's one really great way to do so . We are . Also . You can leave us a comment on Google . Yeah , we have a Google business page .
Speaker 2So if you just Google on the level of Fred and Chris , you'll find our business page where we've got now six reviews , six positive reviews Crazy . Yeah , they're all positive . None of them are my mom .
Speaker 1Well , can't say for sure yeah , right . Mom , On the other side of that email .
Speaker 2But they do seem to listen and they do have feedback , which is really exciting , for just so exciting that people are listening and you know , if they got an idea , like we heard from a guy locally that said they were doing a philosophy discussion group in the second meeting , they just sat there staring at each other . They didn't know what to say .
Speaker 1Right , so they want us to come .
Speaker 2Then I heard your podcast and I had like nine ideas right away .
Speaker 1That I love . Yeah , that was awesome . And just to plug real quick , just so folks know , we're working on a fundraiser idea and Brother Schaefer and I are actually going over to a local distillery tomorrow to talk to them . We're putting together a premium whiskey and a premium cigar line with the Masonic symbols and names on it for fundraising and we're going to use it locally to fundraise here . But we're also going to offer it to a lot Any lodges out there that want to use the system once we set it up . We don't make a lot of money on it , we don't make any money personally on it , but for your lodge to do fundraising we're going to create a whiskey line , a premium bourbon whiskey line and a premium .
Speaker 2Cuban , cuban cigar line .
Speaker 1Yes , it's legal . Because of my I got a guy I got a guy , all right . And we'll be talking more and more about that . We'll have Schaefer on to talk more and more about it as we get further down the line . But you know we're always looking for ways of doing fundraising .
Speaker 2Yeah , I bet they have . I bet everybody's got their best fundraising ideas , man , why don't you share them with us ? We'll say your name and your lodge and we can put a whole podcast of fundraising that works , based on you guys telling us .
Speaker 1Fundraising ideas , things that you're doing , things that work , things that didn't work . Maybe we'll do a whole podcast on that . We'll try to gather up some information and emails . If you're out there listening and you tried something and it was a total flop , tell us . We don't want to reinvent the wheel badly , so yeah , or something that actually worked and you're real proud of it and it's something you want , you know you want the Globosphere to know about . Let us know Gladly . Gladly , shout it from the house top for you man the .
Speaker 2Globosphere , the Globosphere yeah that's a new word Globosphere . I've never heard that word before . I've been alive for 48 years .
Speaker 1I think I'm going to trademark it the .
Speaker 2Globosphere . Okay , I like it , so pound .
Speaker 1Globosphere Sounds big . Yeah , the Globosphere man . Yeah , yeah , all right , enough of that , brother Chris , it is once again been my pleasure and honor , worshipful master Burns , to hang out with you talking about our favorite subject , and I'm going to see you , my friend , on the next podcast . Thank you , and we'll see you next time . Bye , guys .
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