On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Navigating the Tides of Fraternal Disagreement: Lessons in Masonic Conflict Resolution and Growth
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Ever found yourself in the midst of a disagreement, feeling like there's no way out? Join us, Fred Packwood and Christopher Burks, as we navigate the tricky waters of conflict resolution among Masonic brethren. Our latest discussion delves into how clashes can occur even in the most noble of organizations, and we offer up our own brushes with discord to illustrate the rich lessons and personal growth that result from these challenges. We're pulling back the curtain on the human element of the Masonic experience, revealing how even the most harmonious of groups must sometimes strive to maintain peace.
Rituals and traditions often appear shrouded in mystery, but in this conversation, we unravel the crucial role they play in Masonic teachings and personal development. We share the insights gained from ritual participation and the surprising ways these ancient practices can guide us in modern conflict and adversity. Alongside these revelations, we touch on the influence of experienced mentors within Freemasonry, whose wisdom can lead us through turbulent times, both within the lodge and in our daily lives.
Wrapping up, we cast a light on the Masonic judicial system and its lesser-known function in dispute resolution, akin to legal arbitration. We discuss how this system interweaves with our day-to-day composure and leadership, extending Masonic values into all aspects of life. Our candid chat underscores the importance of Masonic education and the transformative potential these teachings hold for anyone willing to embark on this journey. Tune in for a rare glimpse into the continuous pursuit of self-improvement at the heart of Freemasonry.
Conflict Resolution in Masonry
Speaker 1Hey Chris , yeah , fred , what's a Mason ? That's a really good question , fred .
Speaker 2You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry . Join Chris and I as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft , from the common gavel to the trowel .
Speaker 1Nothing is off the table , so grab your tools and let's get to work . This is On the Level . Well , we are back . My name is Fred Packwood and his name is Christopher Burks , and we are On the Level with Fred and Chris and just want to thank everybody for tuning in , so to speak , although , that's an old radio term we don't actually tune in hey if this is their first time , they need to go back , because we've got three other episodes they need to listen to .
Speaker 2That's right .
Speaker 1And I'm pretty excited about them , as I kind of delve into the editing part of it , our conversations . I think they're pretty relevant , and so does my mom oh , let's pass the hard test . That was the first fan . You know , Smash that like button .
Speaker 2Hey , that's good , if a non-Mason female is enjoying the conversation , then hopefully we're doing something for actual Masons to listen to this stuff , yeah , and fully of Retro , because I'm totally full of crap . Aw man , I was believing your mom .
Speaker 1Alright , so this week's topic man Conflict between brothers .
Speaker 2Hey , you shut your mouth . That's not how to do it .
Speaker 1Are you sure ? Because it brought me back to that last few days meeting . No , yeah , so conflict between brothers . Now this is an obscure topic , I'm sure , for you guys out there that are in Lodge , I'm sure it never happens in your Lodge . It's unique to us over at the Mighty 147 , sarasota , florida , blue Lodge . Sarasota's only Blue Lodge .
Speaker 2I love that it's been nicknamed Mighty Sarasota . I like that .
Speaker 1The Mighty .
Speaker 2Sarasota . I like it , that's right .
Speaker 1We're the mighty Sarasota .
Speaker 2I like it even more .
Speaker 1Oh , that's right , I forgot .
Speaker 2We'll talk about that on another podcast .
Speaker 1So banter being over conflict between brothers . Point number one Chris .
Speaker 2Well , first of all , the question we have to ask ourselves people probably want to ask us is how can we have conflict if we're Masons ? Aren't we good men ? Aren't we better than we came in originally ? Aren't we supposed to be the best of the best ? How's it possible ? And the reality is we're just human . We're still just men . Dangegos are still inside of us , trying to control our thoughts and actions . Have you ever gotten into any conflicts with Masons ?
Speaker 1Well , I was raised to the Sublime Master , master Masons , about two and a half months ago .
Speaker 2Oh , so you've had at least ten .
Speaker 1I've had ten since then , but I've been at Masonry for a little bit about a year now and there has been a lot of little conflict . Now I'm pretty good at it . I'm 59 years old and 71 days are going to be 60 years old , so I am .
Speaker 2I'm a big six-0 .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm the healthiest 60-year-old you know , by the way , but that's a different part of it . But you know I understand conflict resolution , I get it . And in Masonry , as I learn the precepts , concepts , ideas of Masonry , I know that at the end of the day conflict resolution , regardless of whether I'm in the right or the wrong , starts with me . I know that and I just know that in life in general , but certainly much more in Masonry , you know if a brother has a problem with me and you tell me where this falls in , Chris , because you're our senior Mason here .
Speaker 2Scary thought out of the two of us .
Speaker 1I'm the senior citizen and he's the senior Mason . But you know conflict resolution comes down to If a brother has a conflict with me , then that's it may not be my responsibility . I mean sorry , sorry , it may not be my fault but , it's always my responsibility to bring conflict resolution to be reconciled to my brother so that . Masonry as a whole doesn't take a black eye . What do you think ?
Speaker 2That's a tough one , huh .
Speaker 1Yeah , totally .
Speaker 2That's a tough one to do sometimes . I've been in this since 2018 , so I guess I'm going on five years or I'm probably right at five years now and I've sat in chairs since day one . I was raised and installed immediately and , honestly , I think being in the chairs is your best opportunity to deal with conflict . It's going to be a regular part of your life . If you're in an installed or appointed position in a lodge , you're going to have to work with seven , ten , twelve other guys of different backgrounds , in different ages and different socioeconomic upbringings , and so you're naturally going to have some conflict there . And , plus , we're all very passionate about what we're doing . We really believe in what we're doing . It's a personal thing to each of us , and so it's really easy to set that candle off .
Speaker 2I personally had to leave the lodge I was raised in . I almost left Masonry because I wasn't equipped yet with the tools and how to handle these conflicts that arise in Masonry , and I handled them in the beginning exactly the way you would expect a young person to do it . I failed repeatedly . I couldn't control myself , said probably too escalate An argument tends to be an escalation . You say something , I say something , you say something worse to me that angers me and then you go worse and worse and it's just a race to the bottom .
Speaker 2I was involved in a lot of communications like that in Masonry in the beginning and working through the chair dealing with the elders who gave me counsel on how to deal with these situations . It really helped me learn the tools that I needed to overcome those kinds of situations and I think still to this day I have those conflicts with brothers still , but I'm far better equipped in learning how to subdue my passions . That's the first one . When you're coming from a place of anger , it's really difficult to communicate with somebody , especially if they don't agree with you . So your first thing you got to do is get your emotions in check and realize that this doesn't have to be a fight . This can be a conversation if we just deescalate the emotional situation out of it , and sometimes you have to walk away for that to happen or leave the keyboard these days . Yeah , right , yeah .
Speaker 2Welcome to the digital age , it's all emails , and the emails and texts can be just as bad as in person , you know , because you don't have the fear of somebody striking you . They're not close enough to get to you , and so you tend to be a little more vulgar and brave through written communication Sometimes . But you know , I think the first step is just remembering your obligation . Yeah , and when you're an entered apprentice and you take an obligation and they give you the working tools , it's all kind of right there in the beginning , isn't it ? Circumstriving our passions is one of the first things that we're taught about how to be good men , not lie . These are all ways to help our communication , I think .
Speaker 2Yeah , I agree , truthful communication , not lying , not exaggerating and circumscribing our passions . If you can do those things , you'll probably make it okay in an argument , in a difficult conversation . It doesn't even have to be an argument necessarily . Obviously , it's like we were talking about previously in the lodge . People tend to keep it in check pretty well because they have those training wheels on right , but as soon as they're outside , a stated meeting could still be in the lodge , maybe the meeting just ended . You'll see a different kind of person , different kind of communication happening there .
Speaker 1Yeah , Well , I want to go back to remembering your obligation because I , to me , I've worked in church , as a lot of you guys out there know that I'm . You know my faith is based in the Christian faith and over the last 25 , 30 years I've worked in and for churches . I don't do it anymore because I'm just not that dumb , but it is an absolute hotbed as well of conflict and trouble .
Speaker 2Really .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , all the time Interesting , but one of the and don't get me wrong , I've said this before I am an active member and an elder in my church . I will remain so . I love church . I am not against it , so don't don't think that . Okay , masonry is not church and it is not a religion , nor is it a political movement on any level .
Speaker 2But remembering the obligation . Here's the thing .
Speaker 1The point I was trying to make is that , having been in that environment for so many years , I'm I love to study and I go down these rabbit holes and I dig into stuff , and Masonry is no different I've been studying pretty , pretty faithfully here to to learn the craft . We came in and we've said this on other podcasts I came in with seven other brothers at a time in our logs where they're coming out of the you know the Charlie Victor 1 9 epidemic and we you know the lodge was really struggling for people .
Speaker 1So when we came in , there were no , there wasn't any mentorship program yeah . It wasn't even a lot of guys to to perform the ceremony and it was really hurting and we got pushed through . So the seven of us went from . We went from EA to fellow craft , to master Mason on the fast track and a lot of us are looking back thinking a lot of my compadres are going to be in the future . A lot of my compadres are looking back thinking we didn't get any education .
Speaker 1I don't even know what it means to be this . I don't know , and we're working on that .
Speaker 2Me .
Speaker 1I dug deep . I just decided I'm going to go back when they made me a master Mason . I went back to EA and I considered myself in EA and I started studying accordingly as an EA and remembering our obligation . Here's the point that I'm trying to make . There are people in the line who don't know the EA obligation . I'm sorry .
Speaker 2It's just true .
Speaker 1And they just and and there's a there's a brother out there called John Nagy and I'm not affiliated with him . We'd love to interview him someday . He's he's just a brilliant man as far as Masonry goes and he talks about how there are we have men in in the line in leadership positions in Masonry who do not understand the basic principles of Masonry . It's happened because there was a real push to get numbers up and just like what we went through and no real focus on the education part of Masonry . And so for me I I see that need .
Speaker 1There is such a need going forward as far as I am concerned . That's why I got on the educational committee . I'm helping to develop different types of you know , making the mentorship program , the education easier to understand so guys can take stuff away , asking people to go back and and know what they believe , why they believe it and do the studying stuff . Because I think if Masonry is to advance , at least Sarasota 147 wants to advance in actual Masonry into that next new generation . We're going to all have to take a step back and we're going to have to understand our obligation and understand what it means .
Speaker 1You know what does it mean to square your actions ? Well , I asked a past worshipful master . You know what ? What are the ? I'm not going to say who , and he's not a member of , not from our lodge , but what are the ?
Speaker 1you know the virtues they keep talking about square your actions with the square of the virtues . You know well what are they and nobody could tell me . Well , I looked them up . Well , there's seven of them . And when you look , when you tell literally past masters that there are seven virtues to square your actions by , they don't know what they are , you know ? And it's like faith , hope , love , fortitude , justice , temperance and prudence . And they look at you like oh you heretic , heretic .
Speaker 2It's like no man , it's in there , you just got to read this stuff , you know so .
Speaker 1But anyway , so knowing , the . I'm . This rabbit hole is brought to you by Fred , but just remembering our obligation Well remembering Kind of denotes that you actually knew it at one time . Yeah and for me , if you don't know what the obligation Means in all of its facets , in all three degrees , then go back and learn it . Mm-hmm , ask somebody who knows it . Go back and learn . Let's start a discussion group . Let's have some fun educating each other on what it means . Yeah okay , back to our topic .
Speaker 2Listen to the lectures , go to the degrees .
The Importance of Ritual in Freemasonry
Speaker 2I think there's some people out there that say that the ritual is unnecessary and Freemasonry .
Speaker 1There are .
Speaker 2I've talked to them . I can't . I can't disagree more myself either , because that's like our book , that's where all the education is , it's in the ritual . So go learn a lecture , learn the EA lecture if you want to really learn what Fred's talking about with the seven virtues . It's in the EA lecture . They don't just give you the names of those virtues , they explain what they mean and how to apply them to your life .
Speaker 2Yeah it's in the lectures . So you know , I think if you're , if you want to be a good Mason , if you want to be a better person , you got to get involved in ritual and Masonry .
Speaker 1Yeah , I agree .
Speaker 2I totally . You don't have to learn all the lectures and get a gold card , but the more you participate , I think , the better a Mason you're gonna be at the end of the day .
Speaker 1Yeah , I agree , and , like you said , well , you know that carrying that Masonry I'm jumping ahead here but carrying Masonry to the outside world in your own , yeah , knowing the lectures , understanding the freeze of getting involved in the ritual , I mean it , it totally lends itself to that moment . You're out there on the freeway and some guy cuts you off , which is a lame , simple example , but it makes sense . Or , yeah , conflict with your wife or your children or somebody in your family work your boss , worker Anybody .
Speaker 1I mean we carry it into our lives and that's done through the sense you know that's how .
Speaker 2That's what I come back to Personally . Well , because I I still have every . We're always gonna have difficult conversations with people always , and I always try to learn a lesson every time I make a mistake . That's my personal philosophy and so you know it happens to me . Even recently I had a difficult conversation with a brother who I overheard talking about another brother , and you know my sense of justice . I got to get involved . I got to say I don't want to hear that , you know .
Speaker 2So I got involved in a , in a difficult conversation , and I felt like I shouldn't have at the end of it and what I do is I go right back to doing work in rituals . That's how I reset . It allows me to . You know , you got to focus . When you're doing ritual work , you can't , your mind can't be wandering all over the place . So there's that sense of meditative , a state that you put yourself in , where you just narrow everything down to this one thing , and it helps me start relearning some of the things . Maybe I've forgotten . So Every time I fail in difficult conversations , I always retreat back to the blue lodge as my rehabilitation . Yeah , doing work , even if it's not my lodge , I'll try to get involved in some other lodges work .
Speaker 1Isn't that really what ?
Speaker 2isn't that .
Speaker 1I mean it's simplistic , but isn't that the reason we do the rituals ? Isn't that why remace and we even exist , making good men better ?
Speaker 2through .
Speaker 1Otherwise it's just .
Speaker 2It's just a you know social club social club , yeah , yeah , Weird dramas that we go through .
Speaker 1You know which ? I don't think they're weird From the outside looking in , everything looks weird without context , right . No , that's right , You're right , you're right , all right , all right . So let's Step one .
Speaker 2What do you do ? What do you do if you're having an argument with somebody and they're just not calming down and you can't get out Of the situation ?
Speaker 1What do you do Council through older and wiser elders ? I don't know . Is that possible ? That's .
Speaker 2I think that's the first step . Yeah , absolutely . You want to bring in somebody that isn't invested in the argument in any way , that has probably been through this kind of situation a hundred times in masonry , and let them try to deescalate for you , especially in the heat of the moment . If you can't get out of this situation , you got to bring somebody in to help it , help deescalate it and Hopefully they'll help you guys arrive at a compromise where you kind of start to understand each other's point of view . Oftentimes you're trying to accomplish the same thing just in different ways , and so a little give and take is all it takes to get back on track and working together again . But that's not always the case , is it ? Sometimes they get sucked into your conflict and she's a side so .
Speaker 1So when , when you get to a point where there's conflict with the brother in the lodge and you need to seek counsel , you're going to have to choose your counselor . Well , and wisely .
Speaker 1I'm thinking about in our lodge there . There are some men in the line there and who I absolutely would not approach for that kind of council , but then there are a couple men that I absolutely would I'm thinking of one right now and I know that he could very calmly and he could deal with any conflict and bring to it a resolution or take it to the next level , just based on his personality and his knowledge of masonry and how it works , and he's a past master and he's been in the game a little while .
Speaker 2I know you're talking about .
Speaker 1And I trust him immensely . I just spoke to him the other day about an issue and he just totally just brought the heat baby . He just , you know , it was just like he knew what he was doing .
Speaker 2Did you feel better afterwards ?
Speaker 1I felt better because I was given a couple of things . One I can leave it here . So if you leave it here , don't worry about it . We're already going in this direction , don't bother . And the other thing is is that I had the confidence of knowing that I can leave it here and something good . Regardless of how you define good , we'll come up with a part from Fred See . That's the part .
Speaker 2I like the best .
Speaker 1I can hand this thing off and not worry about it , and we can move on .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . Sometimes there is that you got to bide your time and wait , right Ooh patience , sometimes you need to have patience , it's true .
Speaker 2Other times you know you need to get a resolution because somebody is doing something wrong . And this is how we are as masons . We come to you and whisper in your ear hey brother , I think you're doing something wrong , and that's our job , that's our duty to each other . But sometimes that irritates people and you know that can explode and you can seek out an elder and then you go to the higher authority and you put it in their lap because , that's what they have been commissioned to do .
Speaker 1Look , here's the situation . I've spoken to this brother . I've tried , you know , and tried . Now I'm telling you everything .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1And you're going to take it from there . Is that the beginning of it ?
Speaker 2Yeah , sometimes it just feels good to get things off your chest and not stew in them forever , right .
Speaker 1And to be able to leave it .
Speaker 2Right , I said it here . This is yours now , exactly .
Speaker 2I need to go back to being a mason , yeah yeah , you know , I was in a situation like that and knew about something that had happened and went to an elder and he said do you know , do you really want to fight this fight ? Just go to the appropriate person and tell them , and then it's going to be up to them what they do with that information . And it relieves you of the burden that you have of this information and knowledge about somebody that's done something wrong . And I did that . And there's something inside of us where it's like I didn't get immediate satisfaction . But then there's another side , that's growth , where it's like I did the right thing , I pass this information along to someone that can actually do something about it , and it's not my fight now . I played my part , I did the right thing and now it's on that other person , which is what you're talking about . Yeah , that's right .
Speaker 2Now every lodge has a vigilance committee , vigilance committee . Vigilance , yes , I think it's a vigilance committee . The junior warden is the chair of this committee and it's their job to hear arguments and resolve arguments in the lodge .
Speaker 1OK , did you know this ? I am knowing it now .
Speaker 2Yes , prior to just now , fred did not know this .
Speaker 2The junior warden of every lodge chairs this committee , and they typically have a couple of past masters to help them , but their sole job is to keep harmony in the lodge . So if you have an issue , your first step is to bring it to the junior warden . Right , the junior warden is responsible for the craft outside of the lodge , so it makes sense that would be the guy that sees people that are having conflicts , and I think there's times that the junior warden hears something and he can't resolve the conflict because it's something perhaps bad , maybe a rule is broken , maybe somebody actually violated a digest law or one of our Masonic rules or laws .
Speaker 1Yeah , or maybe a third party is involved .
Speaker 2Right , right .
Speaker 1I think there's a situation where an outsider or third party is involved . You've got to go up the chain for that , something like that .
Speaker 2So going up the chain means you file Masonic charges against the brother .
Speaker 1And is that a blue lodge , local blue lodge , or is that going to state ?
Speaker 2So you filed the charges with the secretary of the lodge that the brother in question belongs to . So if you had an argument not an argument but you knew something horrible that maybe somebody did from another lodge , you would want to present your charges to their secretary , who then presents them to the master , who then works them up to chain . Masonic trials are fascinating to me . Never seen one and never been in one . Sorry , I was making the sign of the cross on the mic . Never been in one yet , but I am fascinated by it . This is where you have a three-person team that hear the charges and make a decision on the same day . Usually .
Speaker 1OK , all right
Conflict Resolution and Masonic Trials
Speaker 1, right . So the resolution is it's not hanging over someone's head , it's just like arbitration . I'm sure some . Why do I get the feeling that the way arbitration , legal arbitration , is run today was originally formed by Masonic , since we basically formed just about everything else ?
Speaker 2in this country , but let's go on on bragging a bit . It's true , We'll love to talk about that too , Right , yes , so they hear from the people making the accusations . They may even call people that overheard things or have knowledge about the question hand , and then they'll hear from the person who got the charges put against them . Did you know that in Masonry you're actually allowed to be represented by outside legal counsel at your Masonic trial ?
Speaker 1Wow .
Speaker 2I think that's fascinating .
Speaker 2That is very fascinating . So you can bring an outside lawyer in who can actually help you in your case and then at the end of that trial there's going to be an outcome , and typical outcomes in a Masonic trial are censure . You get a slap on the hand which goes on your record . So if you ever are brought on trials for this particular thing again , it's not going to be a slap on the hand next time . You can be suspended indefinitely or for a specific amount of time , or you could be unmade in Mason . Those are the three levels of penal outcomes in a Masonic trial , and I have a feeling that the people that sit on these trials don't want to hand out harsh consequences . It has to be pretty egregious .
Speaker 1That might be the nature of the way it's set up too .
Speaker 2Well , when you get called into these trials , there's no good outcome for anybody . An insularie been around one my good friends have been involved in trials and they came out feeling like they were put on trial . The person who ? Because of course that's fair . I think that's a good thing . People are really trying to examine the facts of a situation and they want to make sure you don't have personal beef or some nonsense , because of course that happens too . People bring charges for silly things just because they don't like a guy .
Speaker 1I think that's the point I was trying to make is that the system is set up in such a way that each step of the each way up the ladder that you go , there should be . If both the parties are Masons , ok , eventually it's gonna get to halfway after where they're just gonna reconcile along the way during the process . The process is drawn out . We've gone all the way . Grand Lodge is coming down on this thing and one brother comes to another brother and says you know what ? This ain't , this isn't right . Let's stop this right now . Let's let's give this up , let's work this out between you and I and let's call off you know the door because it's bringing reproach . Yeah , to our local lodge . Now states coming down To our local lodge because we can't handle our stuff right and they've got to come down and bail us out . And hopefully there are brothers within , you know it , within the lodge . These brothers are Everybody . Look , we all get it all happens . You get your ego involved to get hurt .
Speaker 1Yeah you get publicly shamed and and you start lashing out . You start , you know , building your defense inside your head and for goodness sakes . We can legally bring our own lawyers in . My lawyer is an absolute beast man . He's a litigator and he will absolutely beat anyone down . It would be awful , that would be just an absolute . It would have to be Something so egregious .
Speaker 1Yeah to go all the way to the end where somebody is no longer a mason , taken out , no longer a mason . I spent money on my own lawyer . Come and absolutely you know , tear them down and prove all this stuff that to me Should be very rare in the history . I'd love to know you know just how many times it's gone that far in the state of Florida ? That'd be an interesting stat . Yeah , I would bet it's not not many times .
Speaker 2No , you're right . Not many times . Yeah , I . We saw it within the last two years at the highest levels and it was a really ugly situation , but you know how bad I had to be for it to get there you know , and to go through all those steps and get that Really harsh outcome at the end . It must have been very , very bad .
Speaker 1Yeah , so . So , alright , you go through all this we talked about . You know , the Remembering our obligation seeking out elder counsel , the formal ways Of taking conflict to the next level for the purpose of resolution , all the way up to state If you had to bring in your own lawyer for me to say tell me that's carrying the lessons that one might learn from you . Know conflict resolution , whether successful or not , outside of Masonry , so in your data , yeah , as a Mason , what's one of the lessons that we can learn ?
Speaker 2That's what it should all be about , right ? We join to become better men , not just in the lodge a couple times a month , but every day .
Speaker 2Yeah , and to be examples exactly of how to behave , it happens , you know , I had a situation at work recently this reminds me and and Somebody made a big mistake and there was a financial cost to one of our clients . I do digital advertising and Everybody's running around with chickens with their heads cut off . They're afraid to come to my office because I think this guy's gonna bite my head off . But I go out there and I'm like I need you to do this . I need you to do that . I need you to get on this and report back to me as soon as this is done so we get everything done . I'm on the phone with the client the whole time , sharing them . We're on top of it and at the end of the day , you know , one of these guys comes into my office and says how did you keep your cool there ? I'd have been so pissed off if I was you .
Speaker 1This is the guy that did something wrong , right .
Speaker 2And I said what good is that gonna do ? This guy needs , he's in pain and he's relying on us to find a solution . We need to work together . I'll be mad later . Yeah , right , right , I'll be mad later and we can analyze this and we can talk about it , and that's a positive way to deal with anger , you know , and that's like what I do in the lodge I just revert back to doing the work . I don't want to hear the argument and I want to see the chaos . I just what's the first step to resolving this ? Step one , let's do that . You do step two , I'll do step three , and in the process of working , you kind of lose all that anger and frustration .
Speaker 1Well , is working through the Masonic steps , concepts and ideas of conflict resolution part of assuaging your own anger at some point ? Anger is not gonna even . Anger is gonna be an emotion that you feel inside you that no one's ever gonna see In your case , I don't know , did you go home and punch the wall or something , because it doesn't sound like you really showed . No no situation any anger at all .
Speaker 2You took anger and converted that energy right into a solution right and I think that's a good outcome if you can do it . It's just difficult in the moment .
Speaker 1Well , I did your masonic training help you with that situation , absolutely , absolutely . I think we have an answer here .
Speaker 2And the other thing we do now , and we meet . I meet with my leadership team every Monday . We go over our core values every week , because it's something , no matter what's happening to you . You can go back to those five things and just think about how , how can I use this one to get me out of this situation ? No different than us and our ritual work . Right , you learn a lecture , you hear lecture , you're part of a degree team and that stuff's coming at you . All you got to do is listen right .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right . I just think that the Going over on a weekly basis . You know the the why . You know why . Why are we this ? Why do we do this ? What , what has happened and and what was the outcome ? And and why ? Who are we those weekly meetings ? I mean you're , you're a businessman , you're , you own a company with a fair amount of employees , so you get it . You know what it means you . You have to , every week , get everybody back online .
Speaker 2Yeah . Because you know it's like my frustration with you know , church in general , church generally speaking .
Speaker 1There's a lot of reasons to go to church and there are a lot of reasons why it exists , but one of the reasons is once a week . I Go there with all of my troubles for the last six days Looking for help , strength and solutions for the next six days and that's a base .
Speaker 1You know that's , those are . That's the basics , and I think , in masonry , the fact that you bring that team together and and , on a weekly basis , get everybody to recommit to okay , what is it you know ? You know what is it you do , what is your function . You know , why are we doing this , what you know , I think that's that's critical , that's absolutely critical . If I ever get in the line and into a place of leadership within my lodge , that's definitely going to be something that I incorporate all the time and I'm always going to be , because I've owned my own business as well and I know I people get off track and if you don't bring people back online to the vision and mission of the company , they are going to be running their own company .
Speaker 1It's true , and it's going to be just a hotbed of conflict . So so that's kind of like .
Speaker 2I guess it comes back to education , like you said it comes back to education .
Speaker 1I am big on education , man . Yeah and we need to know this . Why do this if you're not willing to study it ?
Speaker 2if you're not willing to dig in at your Own level ?
Speaker 1Okay , maybe you're not a , maybe you're not a big reader and study . You're talking to a high school dropout here . So , please , I had to go back talking to two of them two of them dropouts here .
Speaker 1So don't don't tell us . You know that you're . You don't know how to read , you don't want to read , you don't Whatever . Neither were we . But you can learn it and and , as Mason , especially Anybody who's gone through the fellow craft degree and we see , you know the , the steps and and the understanding that the amount of education , education that is offered in there , that we're encouraged , you know , to go through these steps . You know of Education , of levels of education , the greatest concepts of education from the Greek masters and classics , that that there were .
Speaker 1Yeah , never were , you know , the seven liberal arts and sciences and to to open yourself up to them . That's , that's not going to happen by showing up for dinner . You know , every two , every other Tuesday night , man , you got it , you got to take it upon yourself and dig into it . So , yeah , like you said , it comes down to education .
Speaker 2Yeah , we've got to get in the game , got to get the education if you like you . You said a lot of lodges Probably aren't doing great with their mentoring and their education , just like we didn't right , but it's still available . It's still there . There's always a guy you can talk to around . Yeah , even if he's not your mentor and even if you're not into reading books , there's always somebody you can talk to that can get you the education that you need to be a better Mason .
Speaker 1Yeah , and reading it so you understand it , or studying it with a mentor so you understand it .
The Importance of Masonic Education
Speaker 1But then the actual concept of a mentor , right , it's a nautical term . It has to do with tying one boat up to another boat in ancient times .
Speaker 2Really .
Speaker 1Yes , and the one boat . Whether it's a bigger vessel , smaller vessel , it doesn't matter . They're tied up equally next to each other so that the boat that comes in can lead that other boat along the way .
Speaker 2And that's what it is .
Speaker 1It's not an overshadowing , it's not an om I'm not- . The mentor doesn't come in and dictate to the person he comes alongside . That's the concept of the word . This is one man who comes alongside another man and helps them through it , through education , reading and understanding education and then being mentored by a man who's already been through it to help you grow . That is Masonic education , right there . One cannot exist without the other . You have to have all of it to really grow in it . And I'm seeing and this might be a side note , but I'm seeing in our lodge a real hunger for more than just a Tuesday night dinner man .
Speaker 1There are men within here who came to Masonry because they're searching for light . There is no light out there . There's a lot of darkness out there , especially for men . There are no fraternities out there for men only to come in and learn from other men through education , through light , through the concepts of being a man , self-sacrifice , courage , honesty , integrity , hard work these are the things that Masonry wants to teach men to make good men better , and that is Masonic education . And we started off this today's podcast with conflicts between brothers and we came all the way back down to the very end . And the very end again , like you just said , chris , is education . It comes down to Masonic education , if you're not growing in Masonic education .
Speaker 1I would venture to say that you're going to see your share of conflict , man . There's going to be conflict .
Speaker 2Yeah , and if you're not getting the education , please at least learn from your mistakes . Make that an education . Don't do the same thing twice when you know it was wrong the first time . You got to learn from your mistakes .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right . Final thought yeah . Remember your obligation . Remember your obligation . I mean , we made an obligation before God and our brethren to behave a certain way , to move through Masonry , you know , with a certain amount of I don't know how to say it just with some fervency , with some fortitude and some zeal to take this thing on . It's more than a club . It's not a gentleman's club .
Speaker 2It is a way of life .
Speaker 1Masonry is a way of life . I'm reading a great book now , right now , that talks about how it's a way of life . And if Masonry isn't , if you're not coming into Masonry as a man and letting it wash over you so that you become more and more understanding of its precepts and concepts and changing your life or should I say God , changing your life through the precepts of Masonry , then I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you're here .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I mean people . You know all you got to do to further yourself as a man in Masonry is get involved . Just do something .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Whatever it is . You don't have to be an officer , you don't have to do seven years in the line , but you could sit on a committee , you could be a mentor , you could be a catechism guy . Just doing that work in Masonry around guys is going to help you become better .
Speaker 1Yeah that's right .
Speaker 2Beautiful system that we've got .
Speaker 1I agree . I just love it . I absolutely loved it . From the moment I went through the EA degree and again , I've said this before on other podcasts I had no idea what to expect . It was completely blindsided .
Speaker 2I didn't either , to be honest .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I'm not going to give anything away because I don't want to ruin it for anybody else . But you know , and but from that moment going through that degree , coming out on the other side of it and then beginning the process of proficiency , to understand what exactly I went through , to look back on it , study it , understand it , it drew me in and challenged me to go places in my mind that I've not gone before . And that's that's my hope for every , every EA that comes into our lodge is that we can . We can get them excited and hungry for it , because it's not a lot to be excited about out there , man . You know , it's just , it's just , it's pretty , it's pretty lame out there , man .
Speaker 1You know ? I mean I sure you can watch a lot of Netflix and play some video games . Yeah , a lot of technology and get into , but to distract you .
The Significance of Freemasonry
Speaker 1I think , at some point , every man desires within his heart to be better , to do better , to be a part of something that's greater than himself , and that's clearly what what Masonry offers . At least , that's what it offers to me . Any final thoughts , chris , before we get out of here .
Speaker 2You said something , you nailed it on the head . You got to let it happen to you . You know a lot of people come in and they expect it to be like everything else they've been involved in and they think they can change it or shape it or get something out of it . But I think that once you really let go and just observe , or get involved and do something , listen with your ears and your heart , that's when the change starts to happen .
Speaker 1You just got to let go .
Speaker 2Yeah , just let go and let it happen . Yeah , that sounds very rapey , but , and then in the most positive way .
Speaker 1Okay , and on that note this , this has been another exciting addition . This would be podcast number four . Yeah on the left row with Fred and Chris , and we're working hard on on our intros , outros , on our tech . We are in this to win this . We will not be giving up , so we'll . We'll be here , as you know , god willing every week to put out more podcasts . Please email us , let us know how we're doing , what you think and how we could improve , if you have somebody in mind that you think might be a good interview for us .
Speaker 1we are definitely looking for people to interview on this podcast , but at the end of the day . We want to further the cause of masonry in this day and age because we think masonry has a lot to offer the men of this country and the world , as it has for at least 350 years , possibly even thousands of years . And on that note , Chris , we're going to sign off .
Speaker 2All right .
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