On The Level Podcast
Some people think Freemasonry is on the decline, not if we have anything to say about it! Join On the Level Podcast as we explore that Esoteric side of Freemasonry. We talk about the inner workings of our Fraternity, how to apply it's teachings to your every day life to become a better man, and general current events. Join our host and guests as we explore Freemasonry together and bring our ancient craft into the modern age!
On The Level Podcast
Interview with Catherine Burns: Unveiling Family, Fraternity, and the Pursuit of Personal Growth
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Facing changes with a mixture of excitement and introspection, On the Level Podcast sails into new territory as I, Chris, embark on a solo hosting journey. With Catherine, my wife and this week's special guest, we peel behind the curtains of a Mason's home life, inviting you into our world where Freemasonry meets family. From the historical footprints of the fraternity to the profound life lessons it imparts, we reveal the nuanced dance of personal growth, legacy, and the delicate balance of work and personal life.
This episode offers a rare seat at our table where we candidly discuss the influence of Freemasonry on our relationship—its challenges and the rich tapestry of experiences it weaves. Catherine shares her perspective, illuminating the significance of communication and boundaries in our partnership. As we chronicle our individual and shared paths, we touch upon leadership, empathy, and the social intricacies within organizations like the Masonic Lodge, offering insights into how they shape us.
Our dialogue takes you through the vibrant memories of game nights, the unexpected journey into beekeeping, the tender moments of reflection on mortality, and the impact of writing as a new passion. We journey through the historical corridors of Freemasonry, visiting sites in Paris and sharing how the fraternity has sculpted our friendships and personal ethos. The transformative power of open communication is laid bare as we recount pivotal conversations that redefine goals in our relationship, hoping to inspire you to embrace change and find joy in the shared pursuit of a life well-lived.
Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUMs2gfkdnA
Deciding the Future of a Podcast
Speaker 1We have to decide what to do with the time of the Skeletons . You've reached the internet's home for all things masonry . Join on the level podcasts as we plumb the depths of our ancient craft and try to unlock the mysteries , dispel the fallacies and utilize the teachings of pre-masonry to unlock the greatness within each of us . I have you now All right . Welcome to on the level podcast . This is a new format for us . We're recording video and audio at the same time using a new platform , and we have an interesting situation where my partner , fred , on the level with Fred and Chris , has decided to move on from doing the podcast . As you know , he started a new business and he has other things going on in his life and so he's not going to be with us anymore , at least as a regular on the show , and so it's going to be on the level podcast instead of on the level with Fred and Chris .
Speaker 1Is what decided to change the name of the podcast to just in case I die and somebody else carries on or we get another co-host or multiple co-hosts ? I thought about my wife suggested on the level with Chris and friends . But again , what if I died tomorrow and you can't find another , chris , to host . So it's now on the level podcast and this is going to be our first episode of season three of on the level podcast , and you have a special guest with us today and her name . First time ever , we've had a woman on the show that we know of On a rink of burns , yay , but uh , catherine's with us today . Hey , catherine is my wife . Welcome to the show , catherine .
Speaker 2Hello .
Speaker 1Hello and uh , I thought you know Fred and I had an idea a while back to have our wives on the show together and let them talk about their perspective in Freemasonry , because this show in particular isn't just for hardcore masons , it's also for people that are thinking about masonry , and we're hoping they find our podcast and listen to some things and learn about it .
Speaker 1Because that's what I did before I joined Freemasonry . I listened to a lot of YouTube videos and podcasts and we thought it'd be a great perspective to have our wives talk about what their experience with Freemasonry is and there's good and bad . I'm sure it's not all bad , it's definitely not all good , but we thought , um well , I thought it would be great to have my wife on , who you hear me talk about all the time . Almost every episode I make a reference to my wife or her family or something we've talked about or something that's going on , and that's because my wife is my best friend . She's my business partner . We own a digital marketing agency together called Dysesphere Marketing . We've been doing that for six years now .
Speaker 2Almost seven .
Speaker 1I'm already failing Almost seven .
Speaker 2Yeah , a couple months away from being seven .
Speaker 1Almost seven years and we work out together . You know we do everything together and I know that's weird for a lot of people . It's not weird for us , which maybe is weird in itself , I don't know . Uh , but I thought uh , welcome to the show . Thank you for coming on and being here , especially on our first test of this new software that we're doing . We appreciate it .
Speaker 2This forced me into it , guys . I had no choice .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I'm definitely Don't say that they'll come to get me . This is , you know , forever on the internet .
Perspectives on Freemasonry and Misconceptions
Speaker 1So , um , yeah , I mean , you've been part of my masonic journey with me and not a lot of people know about you or what you your involvement in the mind masonic journey is , and there are I'll . Just for every man , there's a significant other , okay , and I have all kinds of men in the fraternity and some of them have husbands and some of them have wives , but everyone has a significant other . Uh , and so I'm sure that your perspective could be relatable to a lot of people , and I just thought I'd start out by saying what's your overall asking you , what's your overall perspective on Freemasonry now that I've been in it , for you've been really close to it . Now , for what ? Five since 2018 , right , five , six years , I guess , almost .
Speaker 2What's your overall ?
Speaker 1perspective on the fraternity . What do you feel ? Think about it .
Speaker 2Well , you might regret asking me to be on the show .
Speaker 1No , I don't want to hear it .
Speaker 2You know I have mixed feelings . Most of them are positive , but like any organization it's not perfect . But overall I would say that if you take it seriously at least from what I've seen we will get something out of it that will personally benefit you as a man . But I've seen you grow into a better person , that's for sure . Not that you're a horrible poker , but yeah , I think .
Speaker 1That's like I don't know . I tell people that that's a big thing . Is that the reason my wife let me do all the things I did in fraternity ? Is because you saw the benefits of it . You would see me be maybe more more of a , less quick to talk , maybe think a little longer before I reacted , maybe a little more tolerant . I don't know . That's what I tell people . Is any of that true ?
Speaker 2Yeah , that is definitely true . I don't think you've ever in your life had a moment to like look inward and see and analyze yourself until you became a Mason . I think you spent more time trying to fix things that you didn't like about yourself and have relationships with men that you never had , really because of how you were raised .
Speaker 1Yeah , for sure . I also tell people that your family has a negative view on the fraternity . I say that a lot . We talk about it .
Speaker 2It's not entirely true . That is not true , yeah .
Speaker 1So honestly correct me if that's not entirely true .
Speaker 2They don't understand what Freemasonry is . They get religion , organized religion and different beliefs . They get that . They just can't wrap their mind around what Freemasonry is . We have to constantly kind of explain it . Every time we hang out with them and the subject comes up . They're curious over time and ask more and more questions . I think that over time with that they're able to get it , but in the beginning they were very weirded out . What is this ? Is it Satanic ? It's all secretive and they don't understand that part .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's true . That's a sticking point for a lot of people . Is that it's secret or they're secrets ? I sat with your dad one day and I asked him why ? What is the main issue you have ? He's like it's secrets . Secrets are never good , secrets are bad . I said that's interesting . You have secrets . He looked at me like I was what . I'm like . You have secrets , right ? He's like yeah , I'm like , do you want everyone to know your secrets ? He's like no , I'm like , does that make you bad ? He's like no . How can you judge Freemasonry then ? Because they have secrets . You can't reason with people . If they don't like something , they're just not going to like it , they're going to find a reason not to like it .
Speaker 2At the end of the day , we just have to let them know that this isn't a religion . Freemasonry isn't a religion . It's not organized religion where people come together , it's actually very different than that . Small , poor religions are well . I'm a good religion as well .
Speaker 1That's another big misconception , I guess , is people think it's going to teach you something opposite of your religious beliefs . People don't like that . They're like my daughter is a Christian . I don't want her husband getting her involved in Satan worshipping or whatever the heck . They think the religion is in Freemasonry . But I think that's the toughest one to overcome because people don't want to believe that . It's not a religion .
Speaker 2Yeah , but we have to explain it as I basically say it's Boy Scouts for Adolphean .
Speaker 1Yeah , I've heard you say that .
Speaker 2It's very similar . You have to go through different phases , memorize things , get things just like Boy Scouts do . If I explain that to someone who doesn't know what Freemasonry is , they laugh when they get it because it's like oh , that's what they do . They just get together and memorize things and get things .
Speaker 1Not everybody does the memorizing stuff . That was mostly I got obsessed with it . You've got a different experience than a lot of people get , because I know .
Speaker 2They're all talking to himself all the time and I'm like , are you involved ?
Speaker 1or what ?
Speaker 2And you're just talking memorizing things .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2But if you put away Boy Scouts , they do things and they get pins , masons also get pins and they move on up putting on involvement .
Speaker 1It's true , but I think because I stopped talking about it with your family and really with anyone that has an issue with Freemasonry , I just don't engage them anymore . But I hear you defending it more than me these days , or your family will always , when they're traveling . I get photos from your sisters or your brother-in-law of Masonic Lodges that they run across when they're traveling . They're like hey look what we saw . So it's clearly on their mind and they don't think it's so negative anymore . Maybe they did at one point .
Speaker 2I guess like anything you don't know , you're going to question it .
Speaker 1I remember the first time I played piano at your parents' house , your dad was like why did you learn this ? Are they making you learn this in the Freemasonry people ? I was like , no , they're not making me learn music , even if they were . How is that negative ? No , it's not .
Speaker 2I don't understand it entirely . But , like I again tried to translate what you do , I also important , helpful fact that it's kind of like when someone is wearing braffits and you got to become like a governor , senator , some kind of involvement to work your way up . So when I tell them that the founding fathers were actually Freemasons , all of that information is so amazing to them because you're like , wow , okay , that makes more sense .
Exploring Freemasonry and Family Dynamics
Speaker 1And your family . Most of them are first generation or not . They came from another country , in their 30s , for example . So they probably don't know as much about the founding fathers as you do , for example , because in school here they drill it into you right Like founding fathers and the pilgrims and George Washington and all that .
Speaker 2I mean you have to apply for citizenship , you have to memorize certain things you know and everyone knows the certain . You know presidents , so they may not know the details of everything that the founding fathers , but they definitely know how the country was established and what was thought . So they understand when you tell them who the founding fathers are . They everyone dreams to come to America for the freedom you know . So , they understand that founding fathers have the right to us .
Speaker 1And you've been with me . We together , from my birthday , went to DC , washington DC , and we went to the Washington Memorial and I think that was kind of eye-opening for you because I don't think you knew so much about George Washington's involvement and like how involved remasonry was in the formation of our government and really you know still today like the way it operates in some ways came from our fraternity . And I was surprised how surprised you were . We talked about this when we went to DC and I said , yeah , my wife was like shocked because they don't teach this in school , like it's a huge part of our history and they don't teach it in school at all . It's never mentioned . Yet . There's a memorial right outside DC with our greatest founding fathers , entire Masonic life , and his relics are there and you know even more story on George Washington's given to you there .
Speaker 2Maybe you guys shouldn't have secrets , though the world would know .
Speaker 1Well , those aren't secrets . They're like that building you can see in a miles away . Right , it's huge , it's just a .
Speaker 2Freemasonry and secrets and something shady , or potentially something shady . I .
Speaker 1Think it gets . Probably it gets lumped in with like conspiracy People like the Illuminati . You know that's a big conspiracy thing and I think Freemasonry looks just like it , so they assume it's the same thing as the Illuminati .
Speaker 2Maybe something like that Is why people just don't know much about it . Yeah just had a meeting with one of our clients and he found out that his grandpa , who passed away , was a Freemason , and you would have never known what that was unless you knew you , chris .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , he's done stuff , his books and stuff . Yeah yeah , he sent us a lot of his Paraphanelia and that this was from the early 1900s and I immediately recognized the catechism booklets and Dues cards and some of the other stuff is grandmother or his grandfather grandfather had and it doesn't like make the modern generation very interested in it . Even though they find out that their grandparents were involved , they don't seem that interested in getting involved themselves .
Speaker 2I Think people who have like their young families . It's a little bit more difficult for them Versus someone who is more like retired and has the time to invest . So , Like we know someone else Whose father is a Mason and he's a Mason but he's not involved because he has two young kids . Yes rather present , you know , with the children , and maybe when they're a little older he'll go in line . So I think Honestly I mean that is probably one of the most honorable things that a man can do is .
Speaker 2Yeah pull off on that and be there for his family . Wait so .
Speaker 1I mean , the only reason I was able to do as much as I did over the last year especially and in a couple years leading up to that , is because we didn't have kids and you know it was just us and you . We kind of talked about this going into it . I mean , the main thing that we agreed to because I didn't know anything about it either when I got involved was If I see that there's something bad , I'll be out like I'm not gonna turn into a devil worshiping blood drinking Vampire . If I see that , I'll just be gone . Like that was my first promise , and also you made me promise that I'd tell you everything , and I don't think it took very long to where you didn't really care anymore About hearing about everything . Maybe like within the first year . For sure you didn't really care anymore about hearing about it . You heard too much about it , probably At first , maybe the whole time , I don't know , but you know you .
Speaker 2Remember who everyone was . That was yeah for me , yeah , tell me stories about things that are happening , but I met them or I don't know . So when you share your stories , that I like only know one person In the group and then , over time , obviously I Started to learn more and more about who everyone is .
Speaker 1But , yeah , it's hard to keep track Everyone it was difficult in the beginning because I joined the line very early on , as soon as I was raised a master Mason , and I was not in the lodge that I I Didn't finish and I'm not currently in the lodge . I started out in let's put it that way and you heard a lot of the drama in the beginning . It was nothing but drama for me . I would come home and be mad and upset and I'd be gone all the time and I got to a point and I've talked about this where I Wasn't making the lodge happy . There was no making them happy . No matter how much time I spent there , it wasn't enough .
Speaker 1Time is how I felt and I was certainly not making you happy because I was gone all the time and when I came home I just was in a bad mood and kind of sour . And I think you're the one that made me realize what the heck are you doing , like you're miserable . All the time , all you do is tell me about the problems in these people . And it got to the point where I left and I went to another lodge and I don't know if you remember , but the experience was so different that I would come home and you'd be like , okay , tell me what happened , and I'm like nothing . It was good . You'd be like what ? Where's the drama ? Like you were so used to , just that was my masonic life was just being miserable . It was different for me .
Speaker 2But I also was happy happened . You are pretty anti-organized religion . Yeah and you know when religious people should have moral values about . You know how to treat others . Just be good person . You thought free masonry was the answer , that you would find that there the best type of people , because you're trying to be a better man and work on yourself , I guess that's what I said about . So you were really proud to be a mason , because it's not a part of an organized religion and that everyone is going to be perfect there .
Speaker 2and you know I would tell you , anytime a group of people are gathered , it's never perfect . No , yeah . You're gonna get either a bad apple . It is what it is , so yeah happen here . I was like Said a little bit like see , I told you anything . You could be anywhere , religious or not religious Doesn't matter . But people are people and anytime you're around people You're gonna have some drama or you know just people who aren't doing the right thing . They aren't fair .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's so true , I did . I . I've always been Only experiencing the negative parts of organized religion , the people , basically , who profess to be something and show you they're not . And I was really when I joined the fraternity , and to this day I'm in love with the tenets of this fraternity , like I really believe in what it stands for and the way it goes about Helping people become better . Um , all of it . I just love it .
Speaker 1And I think that's probably how it is for religious People who are caught up in organized religions that are not happy because they believe in what it's supposed to stand for . And they , you know , even though everything around them isn't that , they kind of still stick with it because they believe in the tenets of it . And I've been there in Freemasonry too . So I do understand now , after because I'm thick-headed , you know , I got to go through it myself I do understand that some people are just People . People are greedy , they're Selfish , they're insecure , they're hateful , those . That's how we are as humans , and doesn't matter what organization or group you join . If there's people there , you're gonna get all the above in it too , um , and the fraternity is no different . So that's why I , when I learned that , um , I really started to surround myself with good people and I'm wondering if you saw that , did you feel that at any point that it was changing ? I wasn't a drama drama all the time . It was more about like , good people and fun and it's true what they say when .
Speaker 2What's the saying ? Tell me your friends and I'll tell you who you are . Like that 100 ? True , you're surrounded by people who are negative and cause drama and gossip and You're basically a part of that group . You're like a type of person too . But if you surround yourself with someone who challenges you to be a better person , who tells you where your flaws are , um , who's just a stand-up guy . You know , you guys rub off on each other because that's the relationship you have . So I would say yes , you have found some self-respect .
Speaker 1Uh-huh , yeah , I got that out of my journey in pre-matenry .
Speaker 2Yeah , you value your time , you value yourself . I mean you still give 120 percent to anything you you know . You say you're gonna do if in a perfect world , everything goes okay , um , but yeah , you have definitely have some self-respect now . Um , you're open to quickly seeing your flaws and trying to get better . Um , and yeah , approved as a man , I'd say that's a that's an interesting thing you brought up .
Speaker 1They're trying to catch your flaws and Fix them as soon as possible . It's definitely on my mind all the time , but I know it's also yours too . I think that's something that we share .
Navigating Change and Self-Improvement
Speaker 1Uh , and I think that's what maybe makes our relationship so interesting Is that we are both trying to improve ourselves and we're both always trying to be better .
Speaker 1And , uh , we realize this is something I talk about a lot on this podcast is that every time you discover a new truth , it's the death of some truth that you cling to for some time . And once you um get new truths and kill the old truths more and more , you realize I don't know anything and I'm never gonna know everything , and so all I can do is the best I Can with what I have in front of me , and I think that's the mission of our lives is to Try to be the best versions of ourselves that we can be . And it's uh never . You never win that one . You're never happy , you're never like , reach the pinnacle . You know , I think if you do , you've definitely screwed up somewhere . If you think you've finally become the best person , and you're , you know You're at a place where you're happy and you never want to get better like you've lost .
Speaker 1So we're in , um , there , there's a medium I think you have to find that's where we're at now in our lives is trying to find a medium where we're we're still working , still trying to improve , but also enjoying and being happy with what we have , because today is the youngest wherever we're going to be for the rest of our lives , right , and Our dogs aren't getting any younger . Look at him behind you , there , the old man . He just , you know , sleeps . He can barely get up the stairs now and you want to enjoy your time . You don't want to regret not being present , and being present is a big part of living a good , happy life . I think and it's something I've learned from the fraternity for sure Is that I have to be present more . Uh , you know , and the fraternity , it's big about death . They , they always want to remind you that you are going to die , and men need that Because we think we're going to live forever .
Speaker 2We get , you know , we feel strong , we feel cocky , but I would like like talk about Aries's death and I smell that sounds morbid , but um , we never had a dog pass away . Naturally , growing up , you have to put it down . So every time I bring up Aries that one day he is going to die . You didn't , you don't ? You didn't like those conversations .
Speaker 2And then over time I noticed that you are like you can't run away from that thought you can't run away from what is inevitable , and I even noticed that you treat Aries different once it sunk in that you aren't mad at him . You know if he does something that's you know , Doesn't listen in or whatever it may be . You're more like forgiving , because you know you don't have forever and maybe . You got that out of . I don't know . Masonic death conversations , I don't know . But Maybe doing funerals , combination of that , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1I did that at the end of my masonic journey here last year . When I was doing all that stuff , I did a lot of funerals and I I think it was one of the most impactful things . Um , that will definitely get you thinking about life when you go to a funeral , because you see death and you see the effects of it and , um , I did funerals 90 percent of the time for people I never met . But there at the end I would sit in the back and watch the entire service once the masonic funeral was done , because I wanted to see how the family talked about the dead father , grandfather and , um , I was just always fascinated by the impact that masonry would have on some of these people's lives , because I'd watched the children talking about the father and they're saying a lot of masonic things that he did in his life with his children that they didn't even know were masonic .
Speaker 1Uh , and it was pretty fascinating to me and you know it's hard not to go to funeral and think about your own funeral , but I did funerals for people I knew and that was very different because you're so focused on the loss of your friend , but I would say it made a big impact on my outlook on life and , uh , something I think More people should get involved in if you're in masonry is going to support any mason who's having a funeral , or if you can be part of the funeral service , because it's really beautiful too . I've never been to an actual funeral , I've only been to masonic funerals , believe that or not .
Speaker 1That's a good thing , right even when my mother passed away , we didn't really do a funeral . We just did a celebration of life , which was nothing like a funeral , probably .
Speaker 2It's becoming more popular to do that yeah , um , you Do .
Speaker 1You , does your family do funerals or do they do these ? I bet they're pretty formal .
Speaker 2You probably have actual funeral services , right when someone passes away my grandparents funeral and yeah , it's like pretty the traditional tradition . Yeah .
Speaker 1And you had a young cousin pass away last year . Did he have a funeral formal ? Yeah , yeah , so the family's keeping that tradition going . So what do you ? You have a question for me .
Speaker 2Yeah , I know you're supposed to be doing me , but Shoot . Shoot OK . So how is it for ?
Speaker 1you .
Speaker 2Because this has been quite a transition , going from where your Masonic career was back in Florida to where you are now in South Carolina . You're basically uprooting yourself and everything that you invested in there in Sarasota and then moving to another state , as well as some changes Masonically in your career and in the podcast How's that transition for you .
Speaker 1Well , you know me well enough to know that I adapt to change . I'm not one of those people that fierce change as much . So it's not that I'm afraid of it . It is a big change , a lot of big changes . I mean , we get to spend a lot more time together , which I'm very happy about .
Speaker 1Probably not so much you , because you used to get to watch a lot of shows when I was gone and you probably don't watch those shows now . But we can watch girl shows . I'm not opposed to that . You know , I would come home from a lodge meeting and my wife would be there watching , for example , like the Crown and I don't know anything about it , but she wants to finish the episode . So I'm like , yeah , yeah , finish the episode . And I get sucked in in the last 10 minutes and now I'm kind of mad because I'm like want to know what's going to happen to this lady next week . But then you keep watching without me and you even seen shows that you're like I have to watch this with you and rewatch it with me . So it's good because we get to watch things together now and be together more with the dogs , who are getting older , and it's a big transition , so I was not built to be in the limelight . I don't think I'm not a person who's ever enjoyed being the center of attention like you .
Speaker 2I do not enjoy it either . I know , you don't .
Speaker 1I know and I'm the same way . You know it's sad because you're built for it . Like you got all the things that would make you be the center of attention in life You're beautiful , you're smart , you're funny , you have a good personality , you have all the ingredients to be a very charismatic leader but you don't want to be the center of attention . And I don't knock it because I'm the same way .
Speaker 1I know that I was lucky because I was born straight and I'm white and I have hair and blue eyes . Like I have every advantage you could be born with in this world and except money , I wasn't born into wealth , but again , I had all the other advantages , so I could figure that one out . The thing is it's like , I don't know , it's the way we're raised , maybe that you just don't think that you are a leader inside you , even though other people see you differently than you see yourself , because I see you always have as a leader and I know a lot of other people do . But it's been years of trying to convince you that you are a leader to get you to even open the door to the idea that you could do it . It's tough , it's tough .
Speaker 2I mean , I've always had the tendency to be in a leadership position , I think , naturally gravitate towards that .
Speaker 1No , that is because that's because you work hard and I know at every job you had you work really hard and people that work really hard naturally get promoted to leadership positions . So it's the same for me .
Speaker 2My point of the story retention , even when you have company meetings , just knowing that everyone's looking at me and I'm talking and that gives me anxiety . I've gotten better over time , but it's not easy .
Speaker 1So I was in a position where I had to give lectures 30 minute , 40 minute lectures often . I would often be for hours sitting in front of everybody , running business meetings , with 50 or 60 guys in the room , having to give speeches when you're at a funeral service and you're talking in front of all those people , and it's very serious business . And then even when I would visit other Masonic groups and have to speak about things that I created , like the Grand Lodge membership reimbursement program , I would have to be in front of a lot of people and that gave me so much anxiety , so much anxiety . But I'm grateful for it because it's pushed me way outside my comfort zone and made me feel , like you said , more confident in the end , even though I'm not in a place where I'm ever going to enjoy being the center of attention . I don't think I can handle it . I'm not like , if it comes to me , I'll do my best . That's all I can do , and I know that I'll survive . And so that was a great gift I got from all the work I did over the years . From the fraternity . Is that self-confidence and self-worth , like you said ? However , it's a bit of a relief to me to step away from it all because I'm not comfortable with any of that . It's too far outside my comfort zone and to live in . That was stressful for me .
Speaker 1I'm just not someone who likes that leadership , elevated , center of attention . There are people that are made for that . We both know that people who just can't . They love to hear themselves talk . They want to be the center of attention . We know people like that . I guess I tell myself I'm more of like a gladiator in the pit . I want to fight . I want to be a worker . I don't want to be in the leadership row over there with the old men talking and the young men down here dying . I want to be dying with the young men . Like I'm one of the men .
Speaker 1And I feel more comfortable now because the podcast is changing . Obviously Fred is moving on and we're trying to go in a different direction . But I can still do the parts of the things that I love , like I can learn , I can talk , I can explore , I can ask questions , I can help people . But I don't have to necessarily be the center of attention anymore . Like I don't have to be in front of a lodge of 60 guys twice a month . I don't have to go to this meeting or that meeting randomly and give lectures and speeches . That's for other people to do now , because I did the best I could and I'm comfortable walking away from it knowing that I did the best I could . I gave it everything I had , everything I left nothing on the table .
Speaker 1With the time that I had , I really was aware that people were watching and that in the future , other people might talk about the things I was doing and try to emulate them , and so I didn't want to be a bad example . I wanted to be the best example I could be for the future generations that might come behind me . As that probably sounds like really cocky or something , but that's where my mind was .
Speaker 2What can you tell our input ? Like ? We have directors meeting every Monday and we always tell them because there are leaders , there are managers . We tell them lead by example all the time , and that's what a leader is . You have to show them how it's done so you don't think it's what you think it is . It's the opposite , it's actually being a good leader . You have to show them how it's done , even if it's not perfect .
Speaker 2Even if there's certain things that didn't turn out as well as we thought , it doesn't matter . You still have to show them how it's done the best of your ability In a fashion where you are including everyone and it's not agotistic . Obviously , you're doing a good thing . That's great .
Speaker 1I think that's what you just said is one of the most important parts of leadership . People never want to show you that they are human or that they made a mistake , or people only want you to see the best parts of them . They don't want to show you the whole picture , because some of that could be embarrassing . But I think a good leader shows you the whole picture . They don't hide anything . You make a mistake . The best thing you can do as a leader is stand up and say hey , everybody , I want to take this moment to examine the mistake I made . Let's look at it from all the angles . Let me tell you how I handled the mistake and what I did . And think about what you would do if you were in my position . Like that's , the best thing you could do with a mistake is bring it to the forefront and talk about it and learn from it , because wisdom is the accumulation of mistakes and I think if you can learn from someone else's mistake , that's the highest level of wisdom . I've always been low level , where I have to make the mistakes myself to learn , but I think people that can learn from other people are on a whole other level and are going to exceed even more , and some of that is empathy , too , which people lack , but that's something that I think can be learned .
Different Perspectives on Masonic Involvement
Speaker 1A lot of people don't care about a thing until it affects them , right ? Nobody cares about cancer until your mother has cancer or your wife gets cancer . All of a sudden , you care a lot about cancer . There's people dying of cancer all over the place all the time . It's like , and I know you can't care about everything , but I think teaching yourself to care about things and have empathy for others , to put yourself in your place , is a good thing .
Speaker 1Within reason , you don't want to go too far . You don't want to beat yourself down to where you're scared to even go outside anymore because you think you're horrible . But you definitely have to keep yourself in check and people . Well , last year I was in charge of a lot of things . I was in the forefront all the time and I heard people say , oh , he's got a big head or he loves being the center of attention , and they have no idea how untrue that was . But what are you going to do ? You can't . All you can do is the best you can with what you have right and try to be yourself as much as you can .
Speaker 2Yeah , people always have an opinion about someone or something .
Speaker 1Yeah , everyone is like you can always do better , right ?
Speaker 2There's a quote I saw somewhere how the mentality of a human being is like if you have nothing better to do , you're going to be the person that will gossip and talk negative about others . If you're a little bit more level headed , maybe you'll have conversations about like what's happening in society , real things that are actual problems in this world , and then the highest tier of knowledge is more like being able to just live life and move forward with whatever is in front of you , with the best attitude that you can have , when you're not sitting there wasting time and looking at left and right what is he doing , what is he doing and gossiping , and you're literally just living your life . So I don't know . There's a quote for it . It's a lot shorter than my question here .
Speaker 1There is now quote by Catherine von Meranke Burns .
Speaker 2I'll find it and I'll share it , but it's really , it's good because it's true .
Speaker 1Yeah , another thing that's different about you and me , and I think you realize this I would only ask you to go to the things that were important , that I felt were important to me . I didn't bother you to go to everything that was Masonic . You weren't there every Tuesday at my meetings , you weren't there for the dinners . You didn't go to a lot of things because I didn't want to bother you with that . That's my thing and you have your things going on .
Speaker 1But when I asked you to come to the things that were important to me , you did and like for you , if you asked me to go to something that's important for you , I would go . If you were like every weekend , let's go to my parents' house , let's go to my parents' house , I'm like geez , why don't you move in . And I'm pretty sure if I asked you , hey , come to the lodge , come to the lodge , you'd be like geez , why don't we move in . So I know it was different , because you got caught in many conversations with other women in the fraternity who had ideas about me , what I was doing and your role in all of it , and were women surprised that you didn't think like they thought ? Or do you think that they were understanding of that it's different for you than it is for them .
Speaker 2I think , after we talked , hopefully that they would think that that it's just different for me than it is . But yeah , majority of lives , especially if you're like . What do you call it , mr President ? The king , you're the grandmaster Where's ?
Speaker 1your full master .
Speaker 2Where's your full master ? Yes , if you're the worshipful master , like the wife , has to do something , just like the president's wife . She has to be involved in some way . I think that's just like an unspoken rule .
Speaker 2So , yeah , probably different . That I wasn't , I can imagine , and I was approached a few times asking and I mean I don't know if everyone knows , but we both run a company , we work to support ourselves and about 15 to 25 other employees ending on that many . But yeah , it's a lot to do . There's a lot going on in our personal lives outside of his Masonic career . So in my mind my main focus is the company and obviously our relationship is as a whole .
Speaker 2Our relationship is as important , but your commitment to the lodge isn't something that like requires my presence .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2That's like your hobby , your choice . You decided to do this , so you have a blessing . Go for it . But it's not my thing , it's your thing , so why do I have to do it if I'm not really interested in it ? I don't find anything , you know . I don't find it fun .
Speaker 1No , I mean I get it . I mean the things I would ask you to go to . I don't know that I always found it fun , but they were important to me that you be there . And you know we both knew it might not be fun for both of us Some of the events we go to , but we would try to have fun ourselves anyways . You know , and that's what we always did , I think this past year . You know , when the Grandmaster comes to visit your district , it's called the official visit of the Grandmaster .
Speaker 1And this year I was on something and I had to sit at the big table with the Grandmaster and all the important people , and I can't be there without my wife . So I invited you and you knew what you're getting into because we've been to these before . So what do you do ? Well , we sat next to , we found a couple roughly our age and they brought their kid and they were sitting next to us and we just laughed and talked and we had fun ourselves at that micro level , even though maybe the best thing I could do is we weren't engaged in that much .
Speaker 1You know , we found a way to go , be there and still enjoy ourselves , and I think that's if I ever invited you to anything that was Masonic . I always tried to make it that way that you would , you know , maybe not like want to gouge your eyes out the whole time . It's difficult when I'm taken away and I have to speak and stuff because I can't be with you . But I'm sure it's entertaining for you to see me have to squirm and talk in front of people . I know who you're for me . I'd be proud to see you talking at something that was a hobby of yours that I got to go to .
Speaker 2I think people realize that you're squirming inside . You're very good at acting because you can't tell when you're up there talking . I know what's going on inside of you , but I don't think people know that you're like sweating buckets and wanting to throw up .
Speaker 1Yeah right , worshipal Barry Harp said it at my installation I'm sorry it was at Zach's installation this year Worshipal master Zach Weeley's installation . He said I know Chris may look easy for him , but he said it's like a duck it looks all calm and perfect on the surface but underneath is like paddling and that's how it was for me . But I think we have a very modern relationship right . Like I respect you as an individual , as a person , I want to see you grow to your full potential and be whatever you can be in this world . I don't expect you to be following me around as like an accessory in my life . Like you're a person , an individual , and you deserve , you know , freedom and respect and that's why I didn't try to drag you along to everything , because I wanted to respect your time . There were things that were important to me and I think you knew that and that's why you came and I always appreciated that .
Speaker 2But there were other times , like I don't understand not that I want to be a freemason , but how in the UK women can be freemasons but in America you can't . Just shows how behind we are as a country . That's all I'm going to say . And you guys like need to . I don't know . I don't know what Miss Sonic like , why you can't , you guys can't change things , or why it takes so long .
Speaker 2But I don't know , don't you guys want to survive as a fraternity ? Maybe you guys need to evolve a little bit . I don't know . I'm just saying .
Speaker 1Yeah , because you would have no women coming to the meetings . They'd all get initiated and then they'd be bored in 10 seconds and be like nah , this isn't for me .
Speaker 2Look , it's just the fact that you can or you can't . You know , there's a country that does it UK , does it ? Not like it's a crazy thing ?
Speaker 1that no one would . And a lot of guys like , once they've gone through masonry , they do miss out having their wives involved . And so even in the United States we have the Eastern Star , which is like very similar to traditional masonry , only it's for the men and women to do it together and the women are in charge and the women run things , not the men . Even though it's not like England or where it equals , there is a way for women that want to be involved to actually get involved and do it . So you were invited to do that many times , I'm sure . I'm sure anytime that's the thing . Anytime you go to a masonic events , many people are going to invite you to do stuff . Right ? Did you ever go and somebody not invite you to join something or help them somehow ?
Speaker 2Say that again .
Speaker 1Did you ever go to a masonic event where somebody at some point didn't invite you to join something or invite you to help them do something ?
Speaker 2I think it slowed down , maybe over time because I might have gotten a little vocal . I don't hear to be asked , but asked more than once all the time and my clear answer , in a very kind way , was like I they meet during the day , I run a business . I'm not retired . I'm not into it either way . Yeah my goals in life to be a lady star thing .
Speaker 1Well , I know that you over time . I know that you enjoyed Some things in the fraternity that you weren't even involved in . I know you saw something on Facebook that I was involved in and you got emotional about it , and that happened a couple times .
Speaker 2So we did outdoor movies . We love that , especially when it's the cold weather .
Memories of Fun With Freemasonry
Speaker 2There was some game nights that we did . That was fun . A lot of game nights and we met some Pornamette and I'm never played the game before and we Came like second place and that was like shopping .
Speaker 1I mean we cheated a little , we , we , we were out and they let us back in . We cheated a little , don't tell anyone , but we won like second place because we cheated . I .
Speaker 1Didn't know that yeah , I know , sorry I shouldn't have told you made you think that we did parents square . That was a brother Marty . Marty's science is why play a lot , and I remember they were teaching us on the fly like how to throw the bags and the pay attention . Like everything we do , we adapted as quickly as possible and got really good pretty quick . Yeah even Marty was like at the end he was like man , I'm glad I didn't have to play this you . I got to play the crappy you in the beginning .
Speaker 2Yes , I mean , we did some fun things over the years . I just didn't . I didn't want to go every time and this is so involved . Yeah , what a bit nonstop and I'm not that type of person like I Learned to have a little bit of self-respect earlier on , in the last day .
Speaker 1Look , we had some great times , like for my birthday . We were going to Mardi Gras and a Mason , bill Cazalus , got us on a float at Mardi Gras and you got to meet the Jeremy Barnes , the guy that runs the the Mason app there , and we hung out with them . So you Even though you weren't really you didn't know who these people were you got to enjoy some of the benefits and we met people like Where's full , ramon and Finkelstein and oh , Absolutely .
Speaker 2I guess I'm amazing people that we consider friends for life .
Speaker 1Absolutely , yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 2For sure , and you know the amount of help we receive from these like relationships . Yeah is just , it goes both ways . But it's been nothing like a different people that I've met . I don't know how to explain that . Maybe you there , maybe because you can trust masons more not all masons , yeah , I don't know Like I said I , I really surrounded myself with the core of the , the real deal , like real masons .
Speaker 1And that doesn't mean they were perfect people . That just means they were people who were actively trying to get better and , and when you're around people like that , it is different , people who are really focused on being better , and you can . You can overlook a lot of the flaws when you know they're trying right . But when they have the flaws and they're not even trying to fix them , who has time for that ? I don't have time for that . My life . But yeah , to answer your question from a while back , the transition is Jarring . It's vastly different . My life from December to my life in January it's crazy different .
Speaker 1But I'm getting to focus on beekeeping , helping you maybe put some chickens in the yard , fixing up the house , like things that I've not been able to do for a long time , and so I'm enjoying all of it . All of it . And I really do want to write here , which is , you know , one of the things I'm very interested in . Writing is a way that I can get my thoughts out without having to be the center of attention necessarily . So I'm really fond of the idea of writing . Plus , sometimes I say stupid things and when you're writing you have editors and they can make sure you don't do that . I don't know how many times my wife has to go behind me and tell people . I'm just kidding because I don't realize they don't know . I'm joking .
Speaker 2Yes , sometimes you say things and I'm like , wow , if , like , I didn't know you too well , it could come off like the bet . Just leave the his mouth those words like a big Kidding . You know him .
Speaker 1Yeah , I well , you introduced me to sarcasm . Yes , I didn't know what that was .
Speaker 2Form of comedy .
Speaker 1Yeah , it is because you have to be clever to use sarcasm , yeah , and you introduced me to friends , the TV show and the office and these things that were really transformative for me , that I had always avoided because I thought they were dumb . But they're not dumb , they're just sarcasm . Use a lot of sarcasm and so now I'm very sarcastic because you made me this way . There's one thing I want to say about this . There's there's lines like it's everything there's longings , it can go too far .
Speaker 2Yes . Well it's more like our employees when this happens . I feel this way if it's like a new , a new team member , and you say something and then their faces like they get wide-eyed and I'm like , oh , he's kidding . I think also because I'm like HR to a little bit at the office , so I have to make sure it's like okay , it could be offensive what he just said , but he's not like that , I swear .
Speaker 1Well , yeah , because I'm just trying to be funny and Sometimes being outrageous is To me . It's funny to say something outrageous that isn't real . You know , it's funny thing , but I Get it because I , before I met you , I was very literal , so when people were being sarcastic I thought it was rude and I didn't understand that they're being funny . So I guess it's like everything the pendulum swings , sometimes swings too far .
Speaker 1Done better got adjust that . That , yeah , I got too far . So over the last five years , like , well , looking back , what's your Give me like a couple of your fondest memories that Freemasonry was involved in ? Thinking back , really put her on the spot now she was like do I get a list of questions ? Can we talk ? I'm like no , it's all gonna be real live .
Speaker 2There's a couple
Freemasonry's Impact on Personal Life
Speaker 2things . I think one of the things I enjoyed at least with you we love history and love learning and I think you wanted to learn more about Freemasons and the history and like Knights Templar and all that stuff and the evolution of how Freemasons have become . I love learning so I would watch those documentaries with you because I'm just as curious and I know we did even even the TV shows like Nightfall .
Speaker 1We watched couple seasons of that .
Speaker 2We were in Paris and we went to where's what's his name ?
Speaker 1Jacque de Molay .
Speaker 2Rock D , malay was burnt . Yes , so like all of those things with history and documentaries and learning , all that , for me it's just Crazy because , like you're a part of that fraternity and the history behind it and All the countries that were you know involved , I don't know . It's my mind is like blown . So I love that part of Freeman Masonry and I would tease Chris , say I think I know more about Freemasonry than you know some of the guys . Every documentary with Chris , just about every documentary out there .
Speaker 1Yeah . Um yeah , that's true .
Speaker 2Things were to see you become a better person . I think that is probably the most rewarding in the five , six years that you've been doing this . You're just self-reflect when you did something that you thought might have been inappropriate and correct . Like you know , I don't know the details , but if you thought you didn't talk to someone the right way or or get someone not as good as you'd like because of emotions . So I've just seen you grow a lot as a person within these , you know , five , seven , six years . I think those two are probably the best and , with the relationship that you fostered , I think that's also something that is really cool . You know , in the past few years , we're able to make some good friends . Yeah , good people like genuine I .
Speaker 1Remember of the we . We did a esoteric discussion group one night at our house and you you were gone , maybe when it started , but I think you came in and you started watching TV in the bedroom . We were outside with cigar and pizza and whiskey around the fireplace and Everybody left and you came out to inspect the damage and my wife is very , very OCD about cleanliness , like if , if she's gone for the weekend , she knows where you were , she knows what trash she used . Like she can do it in two seconds . You can be like , oh , spend a lot of time on that . So she came out and I was like , here we go . And you were like , wow , you have really good friends , they've really cleaned up after themselves . And I was like , wow , I have good friends . My wife says I have good friends because they did people who are insipid .
Speaker 2What's the word you can Tell my head ? Inconsider it today . You go people who are inconsiderate . I can't with that , like we're in someone's home or you know you're with you just got to be considerate . Do the minimal , like grow away your stuff or you know like . So yeah , they were very considerate , very considerate . They cleaned up after themselves and no offense . But most men don't do that . That's right so it was really nice to see that a bunch of like there was like 20 to 30 people and you think that large number you know in your home it's gonna be a mess to clean up that everyone .
Speaker 2So yeah , it was really nice to be like I don't have to clean it back for everyone . That's the whole thing .
Speaker 1People threw away their trash and washed their dishes , and all that .
Speaker 2Simple things in life just clean up after yourself and it was just really really nice as like wow , you can have more of these events that are ours , because there was a time during events , and I don't know who it was or what child it was , but someone did something in our bathroom or in our master .
Speaker 1Yes , yes .
Speaker 2And I was like Paul . Well , some people say some child , hold it in and keep it on our master bedroom . We had carpet . At the time it was like , yeah , it was .
Speaker 1That was a Memorial Day party we threw with tons of people and we don't even know who it was , but somebody's kid got loose in our bedroom and peed on the carpet . We didn't realize . Yeah , that's true .
Speaker 2Yeah , so yeah .
Speaker 1Let's hope it was a child , right ? Let's hope it wasn't a grown person who went in there and peed on the carpet .
Speaker 2Yeah , you gotta go . You gotta go , I guess , but there's bushes outside too .
Speaker 1And so that's the good part . Is there anything that you don't miss now that I'm out of it , out of being actively involved in an officer line ? You know I'm still a Mason and will be for the rest of my life , but I'm not out there all the time like it used to be . Anything you're not gonna miss .
Speaker 2I think it's nice to see you be less stressed .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I think that's what's really nice . You , like I mentioned , we own a company and it goes through good times and bad times , and that in itself is already a stress , and then being so involved at the lodge is another stress , especially when things don't go the way we wanted to . And just to see you be less stressed it makes me so happy because you I feel like you enjoy life a little bit more .
Speaker 2I don't know , how you know it's new . It's all new because we moved to another state , so we're still adjusting , but I can tell because you're sleeping better . You're sleeping longer .
Speaker 2You used to sleep like five , four hours a night . Now you're like I don't know how I sleep so long . So I can see that you know taking time for yourself , your mental health , your physical health , is important . Seeing you go through the five , six years it put a lot of strain and stress on you and it wasn't always the best . So that would be the negative side , but that's because of who you are . You are , like , really involved when you commit to something and it could hurt you and maybe others around you because all of your time is spent there . But yeah , that's probably one of the negative things . You spent a lot of time and commitment and you kept saying yes to everything for the most part , not everything , but you would say yes to a lot and that would put more and more on your plate . So that would cause you to stress out more , which stresses out our family , which isn't good . But yeah , I would say that's probably one of the negative things .
Speaker 1People don't talk about this stuff . You know they talk about the fraternity and being leaders in it and all that , but they don't talk about the cost of all that . And there is a cost . There is going to be a cost at some point . And we last year was the worst of as far as my time involvement , because I was the worst from after my lodge . I was representing the marketing reimbursement program for Grand Lodge , so I was traveling all over the state . I was a district comedian for public relations so I had to visit all the lodges in my district . Plus , I'm a super active ritualist so I had to be at every degree that I could get to , even outside my district . I was traveling up to Hillsborough for degrees and stuff . I was the president of the Master Mason Association , so I had to put on a big fundraiser , which was super stressful for me , and I was president of the Scottish Ride Club .
Speaker 1All of that last year and in the middle of the year our company took a major hit and we were experiencing great turmoil professionally and at the same time a lot of the Masonic stuff I was doing was also a lot of things were coming to a head at the same time . So I was and it's not like your wife can really feel bad about the Masonic stuff because you chose it right , Like you brought that into your life , like I got that . So I honestly tried to deal with it as much as I could without complaining to you . But there's no way you could not be affected by the stress I was under . I had three full-on panic attacks last year because of the combination of the work and the Masonic life stress and my mother passed and there was just so much that went on last year that I kept to myself or internalized maybe more than I should have .
Speaker 1And I think people don't talk about that enough . Like to be that active , to be that engaged , to be that out front , is gonna impact other parts of your life and we really do need to seek a balance . I don't know why I get so over the top involved in the things I'm involved in . I don't know . I think the Masonic idea of you're gonna die any minute fueled that like I gotta do it . If I'm gonna do it , I gotta do it Now , I gotta do it big , I gotta do it right and my whole life is like that right , like if I get into beekeeping yeah , I don't think it's just Masonic stuff , you're just that way .
Speaker 2You're just that way with life Everything that you commit to , you give 120% .
Speaker 1And .
Speaker 2I think you don't know when to say no because you do wanna help . You genuinely want to do some good and help , and you know that you can if you're involved . It's just you can't do it successfully if you take on too much .
Speaker 1You need to find a balance in your life and you need to find time to help and time to help yourself , and I had no time to help myself in the last 18 months of my life . I stopped exercising , going to the gym . I've got myself into the worst physical shape of my life , but I helped a lot of people . I was able to do a lot of good . I just wish I did it a little slower and a little more balanced , I think personally , cause now I have to repair a lot of the damage to my body and to myself that I've done and I think I mentioned to myself and it's not fun to fix that stuff , but at least I have a nice house .
Speaker 1We got a couple of acres . We're up here in the wilderness , we're waiting to see our first UFO . No one's coming , just don't know when . My wife does not want to be abducted . So we got into an argument one day because I told her I would never tell her if I knew as long as like or I would let her be abducted as long as the aliens promised me that they'd wipe her memory and she wouldn't remember it . Remember that argument .
Speaker 2Yes , I do . I said I don't want it .
Speaker 1But she can experience it , but she won't remember . So it's like the best .
Speaker 1I still don't want it and and yeah , you can take me , I'm cool with that , I'll be the worst representative of people . They'd be like , wow , this planet is crazy of people like this . But we have our dogs , we have some animals , we have some time now we live in a place where the people are super nice . We used to live in Sarasota , florida , which was a big busy city , and it's always kind of stressful to be in a big busy city . Traffic stresses you out Like , oh , I gotta leave 20 minutes early to get to the place that's only five minutes away because of traffic and people . And leaving that kind of a stress behind is a big sigh of relief , I think , because I haven't . We've been living in a city Think about it for over a decade . We lived downtown .
Speaker 2In Sarasota . Like 11 , 12 years ago . I've lived in Florida for over 20 years .
Speaker 1So it's a big step for you too , walking away from all that .
Speaker 2I've moved for a long time . Like I told you , you didn't realize that this is what I wanted to retire in . I wanted to retire .
Speaker 1When I started talking to people about what was going to happen , their first statement to me always was well , what does Catherine think about this ? What do you mean ? What does she think about this ? Oh yeah , I don't have sound effects yet . I'm gonna figure that out .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean I've always wanted to do this . I didn't realize it was gonna happen so soon in life . I thought it'd be years down the road , but there's no time like the present . I mean the situation that we were in , everything aligned the way it did , so naturally , we didn't have to try too hard , just everything , just like a puzzle piece that went together so nicely and we can't fight it if it happens that way .
Speaker 1You kind of know when you're on the right path . Sometimes you just know , and life was definitely telling us this is good , this is right , this is now time to do this .
Communication and Goals in a Relationship
Speaker 1It really all started because we had a conversation out of frustration with our work one night and you said to me I don't know what you think we're doing here , but I don't need to be the king of a massive empire , like , I just wanna be happy and I'm like what I thought we were trying to build this massive company here .
Speaker 2Because we've been doing this for so long . It's like how our goal is not aligned . I didn't realize that it's crazy .
Speaker 1It's crazy people don't just sit down and have that kind of like most basic conversation with each other of are you happy , what do you want in life ?
Speaker 2Like yeah , and we both were like this isn't what we want . We don't wanna build a multi-million dollar company and build like basically dig our own graves with the amount of stress that we've been enduring . So I think once we had that conversation , it was more like okay , yeah , you want what I want , I want what you want , so let's just make this happen . And I think after that conversation I think you know it a month later our house was listed for sale . It was just like let's do this .
Speaker 1I want you with it . You gave me the permission I needed to make the changes .
Speaker 2It's crazy .
Speaker 1Cause our business is like a couple million dollar . It's not like a tiny little thing . We have a small business , but in my mind it needed to be a $40 million business and that's what I was pushing for . So to hear you say that's not what I want , I just wanna be happy and secure and like , do good work I'm like , whoa , we had that already . All we gotta do is , like you know , streamline it now . And that's what we have done professionally is kind of streamline everything and get and how much credit do you have ?
Speaker 1Oh , so good , so good to be in a place where you're profitable , things are manageable , you can handle it 100% . You know it's a way different life than scrambling all the time and not having enough and never being really satisfied .
Speaker 1It's not a good way to live , you got to find a way to feel happy with what you got and I'm really happy and I'm grateful that you are my first guest on the new on the level podcast . It was your idea and that must go to show you that she still supports the fraternity and my involvement in it , and I know you don't like being in the limelight , so I'm super happy that and I wanted to live-stream this and she did say no to that , so she has her limits on what she's willing to do .
Speaker 2I didn't realize we were doing this today . I'm like I didn't do my hair . I like basically my pajamas .
Speaker 1I mean , most people are gonna listen to this on the podcast . They're not gonna see you , but you know I am gonna publish this , so this will be visible on the internet for all time , you know when you're 90 you're gonna look back on this and you'll be happy you did it , don't you worry . Do you have any like parting thoughts for any of the women out there that have husbands that are overly involved in the fraternity , or I ?
Speaker 2think communication is key . I think , yeah , talking and making sure you guys are on the same page . I knew Chris . I know who Chris is . I knew the way he was gonna be when he joined . He didn't come to me as a surprise when he wanted to be so involved and I made it very clear how where I stand with it , that I don't really want to go to all of these events . So I think , when it comes to our relationship and remace and we're both on the same page from date one like you knew that I didn't want to go to all of them and I know that you're gonna get you're all until the end . And I think because we were , you know , talking to each other and communicating throughout the whole time it was , it made it a lot easier .
Speaker 2I think that if you're not like Chris and you didn't know that your husband was gonna be so involved , I think you should have that conversation on okay , well , how much longer are you planning to do this ? Or or how involved do you want to be in this ? Or , you know , maybe meet in the middle somewhere . You know , I've seen or heard at least some wives that are so anti-racist that they make the husbands , the moe and stuff . I don't know , I'm not that extreme . I think that you know , we're humans . We should have the freedom to do what we want to do with our time .
Speaker 2For the most part , you know , you shouldn't be focused on family . Obviously that's super important , but I think if a man is trying to be a better person , I don't see why that would ever be a negative thing , you know . So I think , find out the goal , why this want to be a free mason is another question that I asked . You want to become a better person . Are you looking to make friends ? Are you looking to network ? I don't know . Like there's so many different reasons I'll join and if it doesn't make sense , then you know that conversations we have . But if a person wants to be better , I don't see what that would ever be a negative thing . But yeah , I think communication is probably the most important thing as is everything in life .
Speaker 1It's all about communication and you got to use your words and be honest with each other .
Speaker 2That's some good relationship advice we also share a calendar mm-hmm stuff on the calendar a lot and I would know and it was really helpful because if I knew he was gone I could make plans with friends and family . I didn't have to wait and be like , oh you never told me you have one thing after work . He would put everything on our calendar and I would see everything that he's doing , like to the point where it's just a 30-minute meeting over video . He would still put on a calendar just so we can plan accordingly , and that was such a game changer and you know under .
Speaker 2I don't own a business and have to get organized , but that is something I highly recommend . Yeah , that is super involved . You want to make sure you're you know knowing what's going on , because I'm sure half the time they don't make sure it's on the calendar , and then you share the calendar so you can see it on your phone or , if you have to write it down on the physical calendar , do that , but it's helpful .
Speaker 1I know that did help a lot . When we started , I started just putting it all on the calendar . And you would know , and I would be loathe to put it on the calendars because I'm like , oh , when she sees this she's not gonna be happy . But really , I mean , the only times you got mad is when I did things and they weren't on the calendar and I'm like , why didn't I put it on the calendar ?
Speaker 2or like the weekends we work over 40 hours during the week .
Speaker 2So if you're gone on the weekend as well as doing things during the week , I would get a little bit frustrated because I'm like , well , we don't have plans to do things that we wanted to know , like a day trip or something . It was just like , oh , I gotta go , I gotta go again . I'm like , okay , you need to create a schedule , maybe one weekend , a month or something , or train someone to do the things that you know require someone to be there . So those were the other things that you know that that's really important point .
Speaker 1What you said there is because the fraternity is lacking leadership . I mean , no one questions that and I'm sure that's true of every jurisdiction in every country in the world . It's a . It's a fraternity , which means it's a volunteer organization and people just don't volunteer willy-nilly much these days , but when you do , they need you badly and it's really hard to care and be passionate and say no .
Speaker 1And so you do wind up engaging a lot and saying , yes , I can do that , don't worry , I got this , I'll handle that . And before you know it , you're way over involved . And I think the answer to that is to 50% of your time should be spent doing the things that need to be done and the other 50% of your time should be spent finding other people to help do the things that need to be done . And I got there eventually . It took me a while , but I did wind up getting to the point where I was just as focused on finding good people that could , you know , benefit and also help as I was doing the work and that paid off dividends and in the end , in the long run and I think the whole fraternity is still in that lesson but he's been licking the couch I .
Speaker 1I was gonna say like what's on the couch ?
Speaker 2because it's like really wet it's he's looking himself because he's the only one that sits on there he's straight up licking the couch right now .
Speaker 1That's not even himself he's what are you doing ? That is a wet spot he's got one under his spot too one more under the hair , please , buddy . I didn't know any better .
Speaker 1I said you were peeing on the couch over there , but yeah all right , we're almost an hour and 20 minutes in , yeah , I know . So I appreciate you taking the time to do this and hopefully people have listened all the way to the end . If they have , then you guys are the best , you are our heroes . Thank you for doing that and go ahead and leave us your feedback and if you , if you have an idea or you want to be on the show , now is the time . I'm a lot more open to having guests and co-hosts and we want to try out different things . It can't just be .
Speaker 2This is my first time doing this , but I don't know how to do podcasts . Like a trend , everyone wants to do a podcast these days .
Speaker 1Yes , is this your first podcast ? Yeah really wow . Okay , thank you extra for being on . Well , thank you again for being on the show and maybe you'll come back if there's good feedback . If there isn't , I probably won't all , right until next time on the level .
People on this episode
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
